Haeso Haeso

Balance, 1.04

Balance, 1.04

I'm being nice this time.

    So as you all know, the 1.04 patch for sins is out, I'm sure most of you have played it. Please note: I'm not bashing the game, I just see these as important balance concerns.


    First concern: Illuminators, clearly right now they are overpowered. It shouldn't have to be explained, but on the off chance it does. Even at t3 and a higher cost. For the same cost and fleet supply as lrms, if the TEC player has twice as much of these two resources invested, the advent player with Illuminators will win.


    Fix: Either remove the secondary weapon banks, reduce damage all around, reduce survivability, or increase cost/fleet supply. Alternately, look into creating their own damage/armor type to keep them as effective as desired against certain things without dominating what used to counter them (Flak, massively outnumbered by lrms/assailants)


    Second concern: Flaks do not counter illuminators effectively anymore. Nothing to explain at all this time, just not a cost effective counter.


    Fix: See above, custom damage/armor for illums would fix this. That's my prefered solution.


    Third concern: Addressed non-publicly.


    Fourth concern: Brill/malice, I realize they're level 6. I realize it requires two capitals. But please realize this synergy is just too powerful.


    Fix: Make cleansing brilliance not work with malice, problem solved. They're both still incredible abilities, but no longer a two press I win combo.


    Fifth concern: Random number of resource asteroids per planetoid. This isn't really important, but as I stressed last time, I feel some sort of way to edit this without modding the game (Like the speed settings) Should be added. 1-1 or 1-2 per asteroid 1-2 or 2-2 per terran/desert 0-3 or 0-4 for volc opposite for ice would also be fine. Neutral planetoids should contain 1-2 for the ones without pirates, 2-3 for those with, maybe 2-4.


    Fix: Explained in concern.


    Sixth (Edited in): Embargo.


    Fix+Explanation: With the way your starting economy works, 2-3 jumps away from the enemy means his sova will be embargoing long before you have any substantial form of income other than your homeworld. As it is, embargo is a shitty shitty ability - unless it's used early game on a homeworld. Where it ends up taking a large percentage of your entire economy instead of some backwater planet that is generating almost no revenue to begin with.


    I recommend adjusting the value stolen for home planets or changing the ability. Maybe get rid of the stealing, keep "embargoing" the trade ships and forcing them to stay in, but add instead of increased build time. You can't build with embargo active. Make it less of a cooldown, less duration, same AM/minute. Possibly make it half the duration of the cooldown level 1 75% level 2 100% level 3? Beatable by simply building a factory on the asteroid you can get before a sova gets to your base in all cases.


    Embargo becomes a tactical ability rather than an economic ability that in and of itself is a tactic because of how powerful it is. Or just adjust the percentage stolen - whatever floats your boat, but it really should be nerfed. I love using it, it's funny, and amusing to see reactions like "Why is my planet getting 0 taxes". But it's broken, it's not beatable on all but the largest maps where it's simply too many jumps to get there so you can have a fleet before it does arrive.


    Last, and I hope this is addressed with 1.10... True dev tools that allow for scripting in galaxy forge.


    Fix: Self explanatory.


    I really love the game, but I hope 1.1 is soon or this is changed. We all want every race to be viable, not a cycle or "flavor of the month" nerf/buff scenario. I realize you guys are trying, just want to give some viable changes. If it's not possible, whatever, I'll deal with it, I do enjoy the game. I just think these things would make it better.


    If anyone has any questions, or wishes to debate any of these concerns, bring a reasonable argument. And I'll be happy to discuss it. If I see "Well advent sucked before" as justification, for example however. Heads will roll.
106,146 views 84 replies
Reply #51 Top
0 upgrades lrm 30 illum 20

7 dead illums 30 dead lrm.

30 flak 20 illum 8 flak left 0 illum left. counter unit cost to cost, no longer a counter unit, just a slightly better against unit.

I'll test the TEC/Vasari carriers against illums another night as they are the only counters to illums left at the vasari/TEC disposal on all but very large maps that allow you to HC rush.
Reply #52 Top
I haven't seen you on irc, haeso.

also

jav = $575
illums = $955

Illums don't cost 50% more, they cost almost DOUBLE.

You're suggesting balance changes when you don't know how to play, and don't know math.

We would have won if my teammate hadn't made a mistake,
End of quote

Aww your teamate made a mistake? Yeah i'm sure none of us has ever made mistakes. They just get lucky that the enemy makes mistakes, and win that way, right? It's all about one person making a mistake and that team loses automatically, huh?
Reply #53 Top
Illums better nearly be twice as good as lrms or Advent is getting ripped off. I have NO problems with even though I have gotten owned by players using them.
Reply #54 Top
Haeso,

Try that test again with 33-34 LRM vs 20 illum... Thats a true cost-for-cost. Regardless, illums *should* win since their a higher technology unit, IMO. Just not by a large margin. Test how badly LRM beats assailant cost-for-cost :p. This is also not taking two things into consideration: You get LRM faster, how many extra LRM can ya spam before the fight? At least a few... To get Illums, you pay for a more expensive research AND need an extra lab. How many LRM can ya build for that? So if the LRM guy attacks while this advantage is still active, he should have a nice boost in "inbattle" forces.

Regarding this whole "I beat XYZ, etc etc"...People, just play a 1v1. Frankly, a 3v3 is a 3v3...It doesn't matter how ONE player was doing against another. It matters which team won, for whatever reason. People play different in a 3v3 than they would in a 1v1, they play a team strategy versus a personal one.

-Drexion

Reply #55 Top
Haeso,Try that test again with 33-34 LRM vs 20 illum... Thats a true cost-for-cost. Regardless, illums *should* win since their a higher technology unit, IMO. Just not by a large margin. Test how badly LRM beats assailant cost-for-cost . This is also not taking two things into consideration: You get LRM faster, how many extra LRM can ya spam before the fight? At least a few... To get Illums, you pay for a more expensive research AND need an extra lab. How many LRM can ya build for that? So if the LRM guy attacks while this advantage is still active, he should have a nice boost in "inbattle" forces. Regarding this whole "I beat XYZ, etc etc"...People, just play a 1v1. Frankly, a 3v3 is a 3v3...It doesn't matter how ONE player was doing against another. It matters which team won, for whatever reason. People play different in a 3v3 than they would in a 1v1, they play a team strategy versus a personal one.-Drexion
End of quote


third was just having an off game, he didn't play with an overall strategy to begin with, and I don't need to do exact, illums on all but point blank are managable before the other guy gets there with LRMs. Requires a different build order, but it is doable.

And huntingx, are you so ignorant as to not understand what happened? He went two civic labs, got a tradeport or two, then went military labs. It was a huge overall macro game mistake, he didn't help at all untill it was too late. It was a 2v3 and you guys still struggled. If you want to be an ass about it go for it, third made a mistake, he knows it, we don't care. It happens, but you act like winning because the other team made a mistake rather than on your own merit means anything. You would have lost if he hadn't.

Drexion, pick a map and I'll do the testing for how many illums v lrms it is on it, but it won't be the same for each one. The number of jumps between/resource asteroids etc all effect it as well. I went back and did a 20v40 for you twice huntingx. 9-10 illums left respectively. One tech lab and a slightly higher cost does not justify that difference. But keep trying.

The real one that matters is the flak v illum one. As a counter unit that can't hurt anything else in the game except carriers it is not a hard enough counter atm. So that leaves carriers, it's like they want carriers to be the only counter because they can't actually make carriers themselves any good so they just nerf around them.
Reply #56 Top
You're right though drex, it's a little bigger advantage than cost-cost, but my point was that it's so far skewed that it doesn't matter right now. I'm gonna do a couple other strategies to try and beat illums, I have one that works so far but I'll need more testing on.
Reply #58 Top
20 vs 40 and you still had 9-10 illums left? That does sound a bit OP, heh. I'll run some tests too... Thinking that the LRM placement can play a large factor here, should be ways to minimize the illums getting all 3 guns firing.
Reply #59 Top
Making excuses when you get owned is pretty good. You've lost at least twice to X now.As regards to that game, I got hit by a Sova rush as 1.03 Vasari, the crappiest faction in existence. I thought the map was large, and was trying to RA rush. Instead, I saw it wasn't, and started pumping late assailants. I STILL downed the most capital ships AND killed the most frigates. You were "owning" me alright. YOU newbs went mass Sovas and embargo abused (AND STACKED IT LIKE BUG EXPLOITING SCRUBS) and STILL you lost.You're utterly pathetic.I don't think GE even considers you one of their top 3.You're a sad excuse as a person, and as a sins player. And I'm sure, when you eventually stop dodging, that you'll get humiliated in a set of 1v1s, and will never show your buttugly newb face on the forums again.
End of quote


Come on man, saying he isn't a good player in sins is one thing. But calling him a sad excuse for a person is pretty low. Its not very nice. Its just a game, you don't have to go as far as looking down on him as a person. Sure, he reacted a certain way because he lost. Many people do that, its nothing new.
Reply #60 Top
it can, but with the side banks, lrm micro becomes suicide. We can test it between us if you think micro will play a bigger role, but I doubt it. We did one test where there was no micro and one test where there was 10-9 respectively. Could have been poor micro on the lrm player's part, but I can't see it changing how drastically warped the values are right now. Also keep in mind that at lower numbers the higher survivability of the illum comes into play. When it becomes possible to fly a focused illum behind the enemy and force them to let it live or turn around your DPS goes up even more. But at the numbers we tested ships were instapopping from focus fire so it didn't matter.

Mystic, don't worry about it. HuntingX just likes pissing contests and flaming other people. I wish the replay of the game still worked, should really start frapsing games instead of using the replay function. All the replays becoming worthless each patch is a little annoying.
Reply #61 Top
If theres any imbalance in illuminators, it's their build time.

26 seconds to javs 23.
30 seconds would be good.
Reply #62 Top
Come on man, saying he isn't a good player in sins is one thing. But calling him a sad excuse for a person is pretty low. Its not very nice. Its just a game, you don't have to go as far as looking down on him as a person. Sure, he reacted a certain way because he lost. Many people do that, its nothing new.
End of quote


I can see where HuntingX is coming from. :)

People talking things and not backing it up.
Reply #63 Top
20 vs 40 and you still had 9-10 illums left? That does sound a bit OP, heh. I'll run some tests too... Thinking that the LRM placement can play a large factor here, should be ways to minimize the illums getting all 3 guns firing.
End of quote


I tried it, LRMs won with around 17 left. Even if I placed the Illums in the center. I could micro managing them wrong though. But I've tried three times with similar results.

Reply #64 Top
Haeso makes a good point, it's extremely difficult to micro LRMs vs. Illums, mainly because of this pesky side-beams. They pretty much destroy any maneuver to try to get behind them to get a better firing position. You pretty much micro Illums the same way you would micro flaks to destroy LRM. Just charge them right into the middle of the LRM blob and watch them rip the LRMs to pieces. It's hard to get away from this because you leave your ass exposed to the foward beams and if you try to get behind them those side-beams will get you.

Anyone tested how well flak+javs do against illums? Say 10 flak and 20 javs vs 20 illums? You guys can do the math to figure out the cost-to-cost ratios, I'm too tired and going to bed.
Reply #65 Top
I can see where HuntingX is coming from. People talking things and not backing it up.
End of quote


Its just a game man.

Reply #66 Top
Heh, now we have conflicting test results...Haeso had a 20 vs 40 test with 9-10 illums left, DreamMystic had the same test with 17 LRM left... In 3 tests for DreamMystic!

Seems a bit weird, lol.
Reply #67 Top
Heh, now we have conflicting test results...Haeso had a 20 vs 40 test with 9-10 illums left, DreamMystic had the same test with 17 LRM left... In 3 tests for DreamMystic!Seems a bit weird, lol.
End of quote



Ya give it a try when you have time and let me know what you get. I'll try again just to be more accurate.
Reply #68 Top
Innociv and HuntingX both like dick waving contests, those guys definitely enjoy talking the most shit and show the worst sportsmanship of anyone here. Even if they are skilled at the game it's still childish behavior and something that should be looked down upon.

Not all the X guys are jerks though. So I'll give them some credit =)
Reply #69 Top
Heh, now we have conflicting test results...Haeso had a 20 vs 40 test with 9-10 illums left, DreamMystic had the same test with 17 LRM left... In 3 tests for DreamMystic!Seems a bit weird, lol.
End of quote


Ok I tried twice more. The first had 17 left and the second time 18 left.
Reply #70 Top
dream, do you have ventrilo? Or drex, either one. I'll test it with one of you if you want, it may have been bad micro on the lrm player part in my test.

I still think the unmicroed test shows a lot though ~ placing the Illums right in front of the javs and letting them pick targets on their own just molested the javs.

I'm in the lobby right now, someone who can micro get on so I can get hopefully accurate data. We'll use a test map with infinite resources I'll give ya a link and we can test it a couple times cost-cost

(ICO, I don't use the IRC)
Reply #72 Top
Illums still are better in a cost-cost, not as skewed as before though, 20v40 almost dead even 20v34 6-8 illums left.

I'll be working on a more accurate way of judging the cost of each ship, metal clearly isn't worth the full 500/100, lets go with 275 for now? Crystal too, while you do buy some you don't buy all of it. I'd say maybe 375-400/100 for crystal.

The tests just feel so off, I don't normally have a 20v34, it's usually something like 15v20-25. It must be the cost-cost analysis.
Reply #73 Top
umm.. if you want to go that way... you tend to have 7x the credit income as metal or crystal. That would make the cost difference even more in favor of javs.


No, the 500$:100m/c is fair.
Reply #74 Top
It's like in 1.03, assailant was much better than lrm cause when you brought 15 assailants vs 15 lrms they won thou! That's a problem with perception, the person playing tec always under builds lrms because he thinks he has a number advantage, which means not very much. Happened to me once, where I stopped to upgrade 2 planets, a desert and a terran. The cost of those upgrades meant when I met a vasari player he had as many assailants ans I did LRMs, what proceeded was him widdling me down to nothing and killing my cap.

As far as the other game in discussion is concerned, yes your team made a mistake. That's how you lose. Going civil to make 2 tradeports was noob and not worth it. In the long run he made money off of it (I studied all the charts after the game), but in the mean time his team lost ground. He did do well breaking my siege of your planet thou, but he failed at neutralizing me. And attacking Drex homeworld just did nothing after that, as we already had a sizable force. Him harassing me early thou wouldnt make much of a difference. I can shrug his embargo off because I'm getting money from mine. And going civil was probably the right choice, but he should have colonized the ice planet instead of building tradeports. It only had 4 ships guarding it. It would give him the money back, and he could put up labs and tech to HC.
Reply #75 Top
From the tests we ran Haeso, I think there were always like 15 LRM left in the 20 vs 40 scenario...I think with better focus-firing/etc, it may have ended up with 10-11 LRM left...but still a victory for TEC...

Definitely true that at the 34 vs 20 scenario (cost for cost) the illums won with 6-7 left... I wonder what the result would have been if ya threw in the lab+research(extra) cost...Would have been like what, 36-37 vs 20? Probably pretty close...

We also tested a 15 lrm vs 8 illum (with cap ships, I used carrier and dunov as tec, he tried halcyon and mothership)...First one the LRM won hands down, the second battle (with mothership and dunov) it was much closer to a draw...