Phase Jump Disco Hopscotch Patty Cake

Repost into the correct forums subcategory

from Sins Forums
I was wondering if anyone who has played against the normal ai/hard ai has noticed this. I was playing Singleplayer last night, (mind you I'd rather play MP, but we get a we'rd game crash dump error, when our systems are 100% stable and up to date), and after colonizing an outer desert planet that was next to a wormhole and also a choke point, I started to build it up. Well, of course, I get no real attacks from the ai so I continue on my way upgrading tech and planets.

After I had a very sizeable force built up and good tech I went forward to blow some stuff up, this is where the problems come in. This was a 3 person FFA, 2 computers and me. I would go to the wormhole just to find the ai chilling in the wormhole doing nothing, then instantly deciding to target me. They didn't have an alliance or anything that I was aware of. Now mind you I was able to handle both their fleets so I started micro'in to attack and kill their capitol ships. I managed to kill 2 of about 7, but then they all retreat into the wormhole. I follow them and then the come back to the other wormhole. So then I have to follow and they end up destroying an astroid.

My problem comes down to this. The computer hopscotches like a bunch of punk ferrywinkles. Not just in wormholes, but also with phase jumps. I'll phase jump a fleet and the instant my phase jump starts, they are phase jumping a full fleet into the planet I'm leaving. I phase back, they retreat and don't fight, even though they have a force almost the same size as mine. The computer will never fight me if it has even 1 less ship then me. That does not seem like it desirable gameplay mechanic. It wouldn't be so bad if I weren't phase jumping back and forth the ENTIRE GAME.

In fact, the only time I kill his forces is if I phase ontop of him and kill his capitol ships before they can retreat. I've also noticed I can bait them by sending in weaker forces ahead and letting them think they can go rape the force, then phase jumping on top, but again, they instantly retreat, many times before a battle can even begin.

I then went to attack one AI player, well, of course the instant I phased to kill his planet, the other ai player, orange, would come and attack my now empty planet, I return, he runs. Wash, rinse, repeat. It is very frustrating. I would notice that sometimes the two ai would attack eachother, so they definitely had no alliances, but I never saw them attack each other's planets.

In closing, I absolutely HATE, DESPISE, LOATHE, the phase jump hopscotch you have to play with the computer. I realize now that if I want to beat the computer I have to have 3 fleets, 1 for attacking and 2 for defending when the computers decide to team up 90% of the time in an FFA.

Anyone else notice something like this? Have any useful or at least non-troll comments? I'll take constructive criticism. I realize I shoulda had 2 fleets and that woulda saved me a lot of headache, but damn the hopping around instantly crap.
29,357 views 55 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I've noticed this same thing, the moment you start an attack the AI knows about it and starts hitting your worlds hard, then retreating if you come back. Saw a very interesting sight with a scout frigate, 2 enemy fleets in orbit of my star (my defense fleet was parked at the planet they were going to) right on top of one another, firing at each other, and powering up for a phase jump to my world. That's just plain dumb...
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Agree. The AI needs to be a bit more gung ho when it comes to sticking around for a fight. I can see if they are well outnumbered but as you say they seem to do it no matter what. In my latest game Im getting really bored just because its so easy to gobble up the enemy planets one at a time as no fleet bothers to stick around and fight. They lose another planet, makes them weaker overall, I move on to next one and repeat.

The AI needs to be taught that if they can weaken my fleet then it will slow me down even if they lose as I will need to regroup and make up for losses etc before moving on. And throw a few pirate raids etc at me in that time to further slow me down.

Be good to get a little bit of a challenge from the AI :)

D

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah, the AI is very good, but when it comes to battle they are incredible coward chickens running from place to place. Quite annoying if you ask.

Hopefully it will be adressed in the next patch.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Try playing online. Phase gate hop scotch is annoying. We need to increase the phase time so that phasing is kinda a big deal. As it stands now if you micro like a huge pain in the ass you can phase your units all over the map before anyone can touch them. I've been complaining about this for awhile because it takes way too long to get to tech 4 to build the phase jammer, and even then you can't bring it with you. As TEC none of the capital ships can block phase.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
As TEC none of the capital ships can block phase.
End of quote


Akkan can Ion Bolt a ship to break its phasing.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Phase hopping is probably one of the biggest issues in the game. It really has a detrimental effect on gameplay.

I think jumping out of a hostile territory should take 2 or 3 times as long.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Nice to know I'm not going insane. I was so annoyed by the ai and its phase jumping back and forth and instantly knowing I almost just quit the game. Its very detracting and I honestly think something needs to be done. They reall never stick around for a fight ever, unless they are heavily favored in which case, the second you bring in a fleet, they GTFO and run like a bunch of lilly livered chickens. Hit and go is part of an rts, but, not like this normally.

The phase jumps are too easy for the computer to just micro its phase jumps perfectly and there is no punishment. Sure I can eat up the antimatter ona capitol ship, kill it, and have the phase inhibitor ( which takes too long to get ), but thats not enough.

I suggest something be done, but it appears 1.02 will not address it. I was thinking along the lines of what you guys said, for instance make phase jumping require more antimatter, or make it be a percentage of the ships antimatter and have the antimatter regen more slowly after a phase jump has occured. There could also be a cool down time where when you phase jump all ships, even frigates, can not phase jump back for another minute, or 45sec, or whatever is a good value.

Also, frigates don't have any problem phase jumping hella quick, much quicker then capitol ships. I noticed that if you get about 30-50 frigates, you can run in and chase down any capitol ship and lay it to waste in the matter of seconds. I'm starting to think this may be a better strategy then gruoping with a huge capitol fleet. At least with the frigates I can make them all phase jump seperately and just zip back and forth laying waste to their capitol ships/cruisers.

Either way, I want an ai that doesn't run at the first glance of an army. BTW, does anyone know if putting the AI on aggressive or attack or w/e its called, helps alleviate the ai running? Are we just fighting tech/defense ai, and not the aggressive type that will stay and fight?
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
If they do what you suggest, nobody would build phase inhibitors, thereby making it a useless structure.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Clever AI. Nothing wrong with this strategy and if you plan one step ahead of them with some reserve backups, you'll pin them in between jumps.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

I've noticed this same thing, the moment you start an attack the AI knows about it and starts hitting your worlds hard, then retreating if you come back. Saw a very interesting sight with a scout frigate, 2 enemy fleets in orbit of my star (my defense fleet was parked at the planet they were going to) right on top of one another, firing at each other, and powering up for a phase jump to my world. That's just plain dumb...
End of quote


Yeah, btw, WTF? I saw that all the time in the wormhole by my planets. They would just chill there, sometimes fighting eachother on the way to my place, other times just chilling happily.

And another thing I noticed is the wormholes are hard to manage battles in correctly. I try to micro and kill capitol ships but if you mis click and don't realize it, your ships will try to jump through the wormhole, so you end up with your fleet split up. I almost want to see a confirmation window on going through the worm hole, or make the area in which it triggers the jump much smaller.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Basically these people are angry that they can't leave a planet with zero tactical structures and expect it to be there when they get back. I really can't figure out if I'm just inherently awesome at this game or what but I am seriously not having the same gameplay issues that this forum seems to.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Clever AI. Nothing wrong with this strategy and if you plan one step ahead of them with some reserve backups, you'll pin them in between jumps.
End of quote


But see earlier on when you have one big fleet and another fleet with say, 1-2 capitol ships and about 20-30 ships for support, you get out gunned. If they send their main fleet over to your backup fleet the instant your main fleet leaves, by the time the main fleet gets back, the backup fleet is probably dead. I shouldn't have to play the game this way.

I can honestly say that 100% of the time the computer ran from my main fleet or any fleet close to its size. There was not a single time in 5 hours of gameplay that the computer stood and fought me. Even when I went to their main planet, they ran away and let their planet get decimated. WHAT THE HELL? It just doesn't make any sense the way the ai will refuse to fight ANY battles with me. I've never encountered that with an ai in any other game before this.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Basically these people are angry that they can't leave a planet with zero tactical structures and expect it to be there when they get back. I really can't figure out if I'm just inherently awesome at this game or what but I am seriously not having the same gameplay issues that this forum seems to.
End of quote


Thats completely not correct. First of all I've played many rts games, I am by no means a noobie with the game genre. Most importantly though, my planets had the max tactical slots available to it. It had 4 hangers and something like 10 laser platforms and a few repair platforms. The planet would survive the attack but when I phase jumped back ( instantly mind you ) they instantly ran. Its just a back and forth and nothing gets accomplished. The ai is a bunch of paddywackers and they never stand up to a fight, absolutely NEVER, in the 20hrs I've played so far.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Yes and no, attrition isn't their strong point for sure, but they don't run from just anything.

When you're jumping into a fully upgraded planet with a similar size fleet, they are intelligent to leave. Even a somewhat smaller fleet would be more than enough to make it a one sided fight. You just don't need that much of an advantage to turn the ai into hamburger with the fleets it builds.

If the ai were building more durable fleets, I'd say they need to tough it out more often and run less, and they definitely need to put a little more effort into defending their own planets, but they are running from superior forces, not winnable situations.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Basically these people are angry that they can't leave a planet with zero tactical structures and expect it to be there when they get back. I really can't figure out if I'm just inherently awesome at this game or what but I am seriously not having the same gameplay issues that this forum seems to.
End of quote


Then you aren't playing the right people. Phasing is too easy and you can never



Akkan can Ion Bolt a ship to break its phasing.

End of quote


I might be able to break one ship phasing but I'd rather be able to slow down the whole fleet. It gets really frustrating with scouts.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
The reserve fleet can be used as BAIT (don't need a cap in that fleet) to tie down the AI fleet. If AI move toward the reserve fleet, jump in your main fleet behind it. If AI runs from the reserve fleet, keep you main fleet on the other end to wait for it. One important factor is that your planet must be well fortified to buy time for your main fleet if the AI took the BAIT. Draw the AI near your planet with your reserve fleet. Throw in some gun platforms/hangers/repair to boot.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

its called building 2 fleets
End of quote


That was about as useful a comment as shittin in a volcano. I mentioned that I did have two fleets, as did others. They ran from them both. However, a bait fleet does work to draw them in so you can surround them. This shouldn't be the only way to get kills on the computer IMO. Even when you bait them in, they run as soon as your big fleet comes in to kill em.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Wow I just typed up like a 12 paragraph response and somehow it died.

Let me summarize what I just spent 30 minutes writing.


Building two fleets is irrelevant because you still have no way to force an engagement. Building a defensive colony on the borders of your space in an attempt to lock down your empire blocking the phase lanes is also stupid because ships can phase right past any defenses you can muster, even if there is a PJI (which is tech 4 and thus worthless). As it stands now fleet battles have no substance, everyone can just float right through everyone else. You can't hold the front lines because there is no way to hold someone at a location. If you engage they float right on past you and destroy your planets. Don't even get me started if they start splitting their fleet up. They can spread throughout your empire like a plague and you can't catch them until some unlucky ship ends up at a planet with a PJI ASSUMING you lived long enough to make it to tech 4.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Then you aren't playing the right people. Phasing is too easy and you can never
End of quote


I must have gotten the super secret easy/broken AI version then, that makes perfect sense.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Phase Jump Disco Hopscotch Patty Cake and its variations are probably the complaints I've seen most here and on other forums. It's not just the AI, either; I've had people run ships right through heavily fortified systems (and not just scout ships).

Not that my opinion is expert (quite the opposite; I'm a casual player, and almost always lose), but I'm convinced there has to be some change to force battles to occur. At very least, when I've installed expensive Jump Inhibitors.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
If it is so effective then why should it be changed? Sounds to me that the AI is doing a good job of keeping you off balance with a smaller fleet than yours. The way to force an engadgement is to ATTACK. Attack something that they will be forced to defend. And if they still don't stand and fight then they will lose that asset and you are one step closer to winning.


Remember: a true master of defense is never at a place that is being attacked ;) If the AI is able to keep your superior fleet bottled up by making you follow it around then I'd say its defense is pretty effective.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
If the AI is running from a battle it calculates it cannot win, that is smart. So don't dumb down the AI and make it stupider in order to "force an engagement" as you put it. That would simply create a dumber AI.

The solution seems to be making phase jump inhibitors that actually work. My question is why they were nerfed down (from the beta) from stopping phase jumping. I mean, there must have been a reason. What were the complaints then about phase inhibitors stopping phase jumping? What was the reason this was nerfed?

Without having any other info, it seems to me that being able to create strategic hardpoints with phase jump inhibitors (ones which would completely stop all phase jumping) would be a desirable thing. However, like I just stated, that opinion is "without having any other info." In fact, I'd like the info. Why was the phase jump inhibitor nerfed down from the beta? In fact, I may post this question in it's own separate thread to see if I can get an answer.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
We need an PJI we can bring with us to the party.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

If it is so effective then why should it be changed? Sounds to me that the AI is doing a good job of keeping you off balance with a smaller fleet than yours. The way to force an engadgement is to ATTACK. Attack something that they will be forced to defend. And if they still don't stand and fight then they will lose that asset and you are one step closer to winning.


Remember: a true master of defense is never at a place that is being attacked If the AI is able to keep your superior fleet bottled up by making you follow it around then I'd say its defense is pretty effective.
End of quote


Let me give you an example that exemplifies the retardness of it all. I have a big fleet, happens to be about identical size as the computers, albeit more upgaded. It sits in planet A which is mine, for 45minutes. Now, I move it over ( knowing there is a fleet in this next planet B ) to planet B, which has his fleet and he has not attacked at all the entire game from there even though he had a fleet stationed. So, I do the group phase jump, my guys line up, I phase over, the instant I pop up on the other end, there is his group fleet already lined up and instantly phasing out to my planet A.

Now, I've learned to keep a good backup 2 capitol fleet with say, 40 ships supporting it. That can usually handle this situation, however, the second I bring my fleet back to planet A to help, as soon as I initiate lining up and commit to the jump, he phases back. I've even been sitting at his main planet destroying his main home planet when he decides to run even though he has more capitol ships then me ( albeit not as upgraded ) and and equivalent sized force. The computer's strategy is very simple. RUN, RUN, RUN, just like Sarah Conner Said, you always RUN. Cept I'm not the terminator and my force isn't that much better. There just needs to be a more effective way of keeping the fleets form phase hopping thats mainly it, and doing it instaneous with your arrival. A better phase inhibitor may do the trick.