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Terraforming is not feasible

Terraforming is not feasible

Or is it?

I am an avid watcher of the Science Channel, and love doing casual research into all kinds of science (mostly computer and space-centric topics) and have come to the conclusion that Mars will not be terraformed for centuries, more likely millenia. Of course, I'm hardly qualified to make such a decision, so I've come here for all of your opinions. Not that you'll change my mind, just that it'd be an interesting discussion ;)

There are no less than four (maybe five) attributes that any world must have to be brought to an Earth-like state.

1. An Earth-like Atmosphere: This is of course the most obvious of them all. Without a proper atmosphere a colony is restricted to heavily shielded installations to protect from the harsh environment, be that the existing atmosphere, the lack there-of, or cosmic radiation that is not being stopped by the (non)atmosphere.

We can cultivate an atmosphere through various means, but they almost all depend on existing sources of water. Which is yet another requirement that we can't count on even on Mars, even though Scientists are farely certain there is water somewhere under the surface.

2. A Strong Magnetic Field/Iron/Nickel Core: The planet in question must have an Iron and Nickel Core in order to maintain a powerfull magnetic field, or energetic particles emitted by the sun will burn away the atmosphere that we so lovingly cultivated. This magnetic field also influences our weather, somehow, by-proxy, I think... If this can be verified/debunked that would be great. At any rate, that magnetic field is essential to protect the new atmosphere.

3. The planet must be Near 1G: Meaning that it must have a level of surface gravity very near that of Earth. To much and our bodies cannot handle it, to little and we start to fall appart, not to mention that the atmosphere will slowly leak away.

4. Lastly, it must have A Satellite: By that I mean a Moon. The Moon does a wealth of good to the Earth. It stabilizes Earth's orbit, giving us predictable seasons and stable weather (compared to the rest of our star system). It also creates the tides, which are important to alot of Earth based life forms. Not to mention the huge number of impacts the Moon takes for us. I think there is more, but the stability of the planet's rotation is so important that nothing else matters.

I also believe that active plate tectonics are essential, but I don't remember why I came up with that, so I didn't include it in my list.

Here are the ways these problems can be addressed, granted most of these solutions will not use current technology, because current technology will not suffice.

1. Atmosphere: Assuming there is frozen water, you introduce large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to increase the planet-wide temperature enough to melt the ice. This would release more CO2 and continue to warm the planet, as well as introduce water vapor into the new atmosphere. After a certain point algae is introduced (most likely geneticaly engineered for the task) to increase nitrogen levels. When nitrogen levels are high enough, and enough water is available, higher level plants (more evolved) are introduced to increase oxygen levels. In the case of Mars there are huge levels of Oxygen tied up in Iron Oxide all over the planet (that is why Mars is a rusty red color) which can be released when a great deal of energy is applied. In this method you could create an Earth-like atmosphere in a few centuries, if we started next week  ;p 

2. Magnetic Field/Iron Core: This one is simple, tractor beam (or attach a rocket to) a big hunk of iron, or lots of pieces of iron, and smash it into the planet. If your lucky the impact will melt a large portion of the surface and cause the heavier-than-rock iron to sink to the core of the planet, thus supplanting the normally rock core with an iron one. The impact will have to be sufficiently large to melt enough of the rock to get all the way to the bottom or the magnetic field will be off-center at best, and not work at the worst. You also don't want to blast the whole planet apart, unless your trying to make a moon ;) Obviously this step will have to be done before the formation of the atmosphere.

3. Earth-like Gravity: Basically this will be done in the same step as the construction of the iron core. By introducing heavier elements at various levels, or by sending other other large mass objects (perhaps from the asteroid belt) to the planet a higher level of gravity could be achieved.

4. Natural Satellite(Moon): Either piece one together from asteroids and meteors to achieve the right size at the right distance or do it the way the Earth got its moon. The first method is more likely to happen soon... well sooner.

By gathering together many large objects, again from the asteroid belt, you could eventually form a moon. At first you may need to maintain their relative position to eachother and the planet. Eventually their mutual gravity would draw them together, and after a great deal of time the increasing gravity of the object would cause it to become more cohesive, eventually becomeing a sphere. This process could be sped up if the initial objects are of a super heavy element, such as Uranium, but an inert element/substance would probably be a better choice.

The second would be to replicate the birth of our own moon. It is theorized that a large object, roughly the size of Mars, struck the early still-molten Earth. This impact threw off huge amounts of material into orbit. This material eventually coalesced into our moon. This method would make creating the Iron Core easier because it would most certainly melt the entire planet, allowing the iron to sink all the way to the bottom. However, it is extremely risky, because there is no way to be sure it will turn out properly. If to much is ejected than the mass of the planet may become to small, if to little than you just wasted your time and energy, and it takes alot of energy to move a planetoid! You also don't know if it will land in the right orbit (the correct distance). It gets even more complicated when you factor in that you need the distance to be just right for the ratio between planetary gravity and lunar gravity. This method is just too unpredictable.

Both methods could take centuries to create a moon.

As to my (almost) certainty that there must be active plate tectonics, well you'd introduce radioactive elements to the iron/nickel core when you insterted it, such as Uranium, Thorium, and Potassium. These elements exist at the center of the Earth, within the Iron/Nickel core, and create a kind of atomic engine that keeps the interior of the Earth very hot. Without it the Earth would have cooled after less than 100 million years after the formation of the moon, this would have eliminated plate tectonics, and thus made life impossible, for some reason I can't remember.

Okay, that is my rediculusly long post. Thoughts?
51,683 views 41 replies
Reply #26 Top
Its all a matter of what you want to define evolution as. If you mean evolution by means of natural selection, like what Darwin was meaning, then yes, in a way as he described it, we have stop evolving. IE. We don't "weed" out through death, the handicap and infirm.
End of quote


No, it's virtually impossible for us to stop evolving genetically. People are still being removed from the gene pool, if not by disease and defect then by their actions, and more importantly the new people that are being born are being born to parents who selected each other based on some criteria. Selection of mates is as important a component in evolution as "culling" is. I'm sure when you considered your mate, or are considering a future mate, you didn't just randomly and blindly choose. You picked based on certain criteria you have, and if you and your mate end up having children, you have just contributed to the evolution (for better or worse) of the human race.

What current human evolution is selecting for is considerably different than what it was in the past, but it's still selecting for certain characteristics (which will be different in different human cultures).
Reply #27 Top

Reply #28 Top
Mars is too light to hold an Earth temperature atmosphere for any appreciable length of time


I don't doubt that you are correct, the problem is one of filling a leaking container. However, I read somewhere that if you could instantly pump the moon up to 1 earth atmosphere, it would remain breathable for about 2000 years, (I didn't do the math). That's long enough to be useful in people years, but in cosmic terms it is a moment. I don't recall the number for Mars but I believe it was over 100,000 years.

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I didn't calculate how long it would take for the atmosphere to be lost, just that it eventually would be. Those numbers seem absurdly high, though. Wish I could see the math on those. The Moon in particular - maybe a free moon-size body, but tidal effects from Earth would strip the Moon long before that.
Reply #29 Top
Why doesn't anyone ever read the entirety of a post? I'm going to quote myself now:

I forgot to mention that one of the problems with counting on adaptation is that humans have essentially stopped evolving. People don't generally factor in genetics when they choose who they have children with (if they really make the choice at all). I understand fully the massive timescale evolution requires, but our society spends vast resources on saving the lives, and correcting the defects, that evolution would rather toss out. These corrected defects don't alter our genes. Someone who wears glasses or gets lasic still has genes for bad eyesight, these will be passed on.
End of quote


I could not possibly draw on the last 10,000 years as an earmark of whether not the human race is continueing to evolve, it just isn't enough time. I am stating that our collective culture has reached a point where we do not factor in the genetic strengths of any particual individual. You don't see Olympic Atheletes having any more children than an Amish (wo)man who has 12 kids because they don't believe in birth control. Natural Selection has been overriden by human society.

Evolution, the change of species over time, hasn't really stopped. It can't really. What I should have said is that Natural Selection has stopped, or slowed to the point of being pretty much ineffective. To rely on Natural Selection to create a new species that will suit the colony's environment is a cop-out and will probably get your colonists killed off a few hundred thousand years before those adaptations will take hold.
Reply #30 Top
I would point back to the mention of nano technology. A lot of significant problems with this tech have been solved in recent years. It's possible we could get experimental stuff going in as little as five years (not likely, just possible). I think this is a much better than 50% chance that we will start using this within the next fifty years. Once we do start using it, its development could easily (likely?) be fueled in a fashion similar to computer technology with rapid improvements. If we do crack it, we can expect self replicating and programmable nanites to follow in short order. This, in turn, would be capable of solving all of the gross planetary issues (mass, atmosphere, heavy metals, etc.), since it's nothing quadrillions of self replicating/self replacing nanities couldn't solve in a few decades. I still see it as taking at least a minimum of a hundred years from right now though. Is this likely? Maybe not. But it is one possible answer that could significantly shorten the time window and solve many of the issues.

I think the biological issues are perhaps the bigger challenge. You can easily drop the basics with some algae and, with assistance, you should be able to avoid gross errors and massive die offs....But complex ecosystems are going to take time and the gradual introduction of new levels of complexity. Likely thousands of years to finish it even under rush job circumstances. It may be livable once you get the algae cycle and an atmospheric cycle working, but it will not be pleasant.

I expect this to be a big issue once we do get out into the galaxy. I expect that planets with earth like properties will be very rare, but findable....But once you start searching among the earth like planets, I suspect find ones that are livable will be a whole different level of rare. We may(!) be able to avoid gross planetary terraforming for a bit, but we are going to have a use for the biological terraforming skills pretty early on if we ever manage to get to other star systems. Especially if we do find a particularly close match.

Of course, if we do find a match, do we wipe out all of the native plant life to make it earth human friendly (have no doubts, we would have to wipe out most of it) or is it more valuable to learn from the native life? Plus the moral questions about doing so are likely to be hazardous...
Reply #31 Top
Removed, accidental double post.
Reply #32 Top
another possibility which is undermentioned is Venus. If a way to cool it down could be found (perhaps by building a massive orbital system of mirrors to reflect the sinlight away from the planet enough) it would have water, a fairly easily fixed atmosphere, and a size pretty comparable to earth.
End of quote

Terraforming Venus would be much more difficult. You're starting with a planet that has 90 times the atmospheric pressure of Earth and rains sulphuric acid. The surface temperature is a searing 800F throughout the planet day and night. Venus is a really nasty place. They can't even get a probe to survive there for any length of time.

I think it would be more realistic to think in terms of folding space to allow travel to other solar systems. Physicists have already theorized about the possibilty. With that capability, you don't need to terraform anything, just colonize a planet that can already support life.

I expect that planets with earth like properties will be very rare, but findable.
End of quote

They may not be that rare. Planet finders have already discovered it's common for stars to have planets in orbit. With some 200 billion stars in our galaxy, there should be a good number of Earth like planets. We'll know soon with the terrestrial planet finder satellite going up in the next decade. Even if Earth like planets are exceedingly rare, there's the possibility that folding space would allow travel to other galaxies as well.

Reply #33 Top
Venus would be a matter of emptying the clouds, Venus is mainly that hot and that under pressure because of the clouds, so getting them to empty would set venus well on it's way. Still a very sulphuric planet though. Would need some new soil.
Reply #34 Top
With any terraforming project, the major components will always be labor, and energy. Once those are solved, Terraforming takes on a whole new meaning.

Speaking of using Nano-tech for terraforming makes good sense, but i'd like to point out, it is not nessisary. One of the greatest advantages proposed with Nano-tech is it's ability to self-replicate. So, in order to start a torraforming project, drop a coffee can's worth of Nites and before to long, you could have a blanket to cover the planet.

That being said however, there is little reason why that self replicating would have to occur on a nano-scale. Envision using actual industrial sized, automated factories with the ability to self-replicate, factories to perform mass brute-force possessing of the atmospheric gases. Use 100 factories, it'd may take 2000 years, use 100,000 factories, then you may finish in 5.

As for "heating" the surface of a planet... there's no such thing. The temperature of a planet is dependent on the amount of solar energy is receives, and how much thermal energy it can store due to greenhouse effects. If you were to block 100% of the sunlight coming to earth, how long would it take for the planet to resemble a barren rock? With Mars, when terraforming, introduce a level of greenhouse gases, not the CO2 lightweight, but perhaps methane (20 times more effective, http://www.epa.gov/methane/) and watch that temperature go up, up, up. And if it doesn't receive enough solar radiation in the first place, orbital mirrors thousands of square miles in size, made of a material like Mylar, are more then feasible.

As for energy, perhaps when placing the mirrors to concentrate light, perhaps orbital solar panels? Or even, just mirrors to create "hot spots" on the planetary surface for solar arrays built on the ground.

Mass and water? The asteroid belt.... vast amounts of both in nickel iron asteroids, and water-ice/methane comets. Use a variant of your self-replicating factories. A factory floats along, finds a candidate, attaches itself, builds a rocket from local raw materials, and a few years later, arrives. And if you have hundreds or even thousands of porto-factiers doing this, you'll get enough mass to even make yourself a lovely moon.

Now, everything I have mentioned here would take MASSIVE amounts of material and processing to create, except, use those workhorse factories, build 5 or 10 to start, send em out, and watch em grow and build. Watch solar arrays spring up like weeds. Have herds of factories building their OWN infrastructure, and even, one for us? All we have to do, once the wheel is turning, is provide the occasional correction or guidance.
Reply #35 Top
You basically reiterated some of my points (I think you misunderstood the heated core part though...) and added the Von Neumann factories. Those whould be quite perfect for the releasing of greenhouse gases, after the introduction of the new core and the added mass.
Reply #36 Top
The reiteration of the facts is true, I guess, just changing the context.

I think the biggest ongoing factor here is the perception of what the terraforming is. Are we talking about a Earth-like living condition for active civilization? Or, err, well, a Earth Replica?

Creating a livable world with a breathable atmosphere doesn't require the molten core, or the 1G mass. Those factors are however needed to maintain it over a long term (millennia or longer). That would only be needed if we want a world where we can complete the process, leave for a hundred thousand years, and come back and expect it livable.

However, with humanity's track record, that would hardly be the case. Once you had the infrastructure to change a planet so dramatically, it'd probably never be disassembled, and would continue to be used to maintain the planet at whatever "ideal" state was settled on. Counterbalancing the atmosphere bleed-off with factories, shaft-mining for core-locked elements, etc.

Also, for clarification, I understood the part about re-heating the core, I think I got on the atmosphere tangent due to one of the followup posts.
Reply #37 Top
as for a reason we don't consider Venus for terraforming is also its long night/day cycle. For the human observer, it would be day for about 114 days (the actual rotation time is higher, just stating the amount of visible 'daylight'). This is an issue because any liquid water between the tropic parallels would evaporate at a MUCH higher rate than what is seen on Earth and result eventually, in the same runaway greenhouse effect that is seen on Venus currently.
Reply #38 Top
well, i thought i'd drop a link for my old discussion.

bussard ramjets, cryonic statis, and exoplanetary colonization

on the evolution discussion...

you might want to check out Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge by E.O. Wilson. he synthesizes a model of human evolution he calls "gene-culture co-evolution". you can also read up on the idea on wikipedia under Dual inheritance theory.
Reply #39 Top
a reason we don't consider Venus for terraforming
End of quote


I also understand that the reverse rotation is a negative factor that would need to be addressed. I don't recall why but I have read that.
Reply #40 Top
i don't see why it would need to be, no animal that i know of is dependent on the sun rising in the east, and setting in the west; just the photonic energy and cycle is really the important part.

Oh and another thing about Mars is its orbit; while Mars enjoys similar seasons to Earth due to its axial tilt, its orbit shows an eccentricity due to be the gravitational pull of the Outer Planets, such as Jupiter. This causes an extreme difference in seasonal temperatures especially in the southern hemisphere with is tilted toward the sun at perihelion (closest) and away at aphelion (farthest). The northern hemisphere however remains rather "moderate" year round due to the fact that the opposite is true.

Finally, as for the magnetosphere, it has be seen in Venus and on Earth that a heavy atmosphere will create a weak to moderate magnetosphere. As was mentioned earlier, while the lack of a magnetosphere will cause the siphoning of gases into space it does not happen on a scale that would matter to biological processes, especially if low maintenance man-made interaction was to take place to constantly replace the siphoned amounts.
Reply #41 Top
All this is true, but the constant maintenance of the atmosphere would be difficult and costly. I know that the rate of loss would be slow, very, very slow. But an atmosphere is an infinitely complex and chaotic system, it would be difficult to predict how the efforts to maintain the atmospere would affect it. What I'm trying to say is that theory and practice don't always agree with eachother.