Surrendering as a human player

Well.. there's a possibility that this might've been written about before, but I'll post my idea anyways just to see if there's anyone who might agree or disagree with it, because well, it's just an idea.

I've noticed that empires surrender themselves, like anyone else has, but I feel like if it was a sort of unfair ending for an empire.. they just go and surrender their two or three planets left (or whichever number) and then plain disappear. Obviously this means that if we ever surrender to an AI then the game ends because our empire just goes poof.

Then I thought, why should it be like that? Why not make surrender for human players work differently. I've for example have seen myself flooded by enemy ships at unexpected times because of some mistakes of my own, and only have one or two races that aren't at war with me stil. So yeah you try to fight but sometimes you just can't produce that much military wise. Or some other times when you're trying to go for a more economic/research game where you forget or begin building military power once its already too late, and watch your small efforts go to waste.
So, when that happens, why not being able to surrender to any empire like the AI does, but instead of forfeiting the game with that, make you a sub-empire of the race which you surrendered to? With this I mean, you, as race-x, stop existing. But you continue as "governor" for the few planets you gave up.. deciding what to do with its production (which ships to build, or improvements), and as "militar governor" too of the ships made within those planets (obviously going to war with whoever the main race is, without being able to go to war by your own) while still being asked by the main race to give them certain ship(s) which you'd have to do.

Maybe you could even add a diplomacy extra thing, where as you'd normally be voted whether your party stays in power or not, now its your party against the main race party, elections in which if you lose you also lose the game (considering that you'd no longer be governor).

Within the research part.. well not sure, maybe make your planets research as individuals too and continue with the same tech tree you had before surrendering.. or if you want to make it more complicated, split the tech tree, giving your techs to the main race, while also being able to research off their techs (but in case you split up, and lets say you researched the last tech of a weapon because the main race had the before-last one, it'd be disabled for you unless you research since where you were at the beginning).

Now you may see that I mention there a split up. Well why not let you as a surrendered sub-empire, eventually ask for independence again once you feel strong enough.. with three chances of fulfilling this. First "good" with your main race by just plain asking things or such.. if it doesnt work then the "neutral" way which might be based off giving tribute+tech+ships or something alike, and if not then the "evil" which would be declaring war upon that race which let you survive for an extra minute (the kind of "we're not ever signing a peace treaty" sort of war"), considering that you would probably not be as strong as them because of the constant ship/bc tributes. Maybe after independence declare your empire/race under a new name.. you know, just like if you evolved or something.

Of course you may say that it could be abused.. but maybe if you put in some limit.. either just being able to surrender 1/2/3 times (depending on the size of the map), or hurting your "trust level" for "surrendering" to other races after being independent once (for example, at a start you may surrender to any empire.. go for the drengi/korath so that they can protect you with their military; but then as you break thrust then only being able to surrender to the one or two races that may still have you in "close/friendly").
Maybe give you certain penalties like a permanent production loss because of permanent boycots and such..

And I think that's about all I have to say. Personally I find the idea of being able to do this very very interesting and potentially fun. Gives you the chance to survive even the worse of your games.. and I think it would certainly change how the game itself is played. Of course.. I don't expect it to happen or anything alike (even tho I'd take it as a very pleasant expansion update/gal 3 upgrade), but as I said, it's just an idea that seemed interesting enough to share and see the feedback from more experienced players.
13,724 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top
why not being able to surrender to any empire like the AI does, but instead of forfeiting the game with that, make you a sub-empire of the race which you surrendered to?


Are you French by any chance?? (WW2 French) lol



Reply #2 Top
I think this is pretty similar to the ideas for "protectorate" states that have been floated around before, in many different forms.

In that regard, I'd personally like to be able to surrender sovereignty piecemeal, as a diplomatic option. For example:

*Political sovereignty: when you cede this to another race, they get to call all the shots militarily. Additionally, you can't start (or end) wars, enter into treaties, or other such things without the permission of the dominant nation. All you UP votes side with that nation. This is how you turn another civilisation into a remote appendage of your own empire.
*Economic sovereignty: they (possibly) set your tax rate, and they reap a certain percentage of the profits. A one sided economic treaty that hurts you.
*Research: you lose a percentage of your research output to the other nation.

A nation could terminate these agreements at any time, with no penalty. No penalty, of course, except for a very cheesed off neighbour. When you enter into such a treaty, it becomes more of "make keeping us around easier/more advantage than crushing us" option, and you better have the muscle to back up termination of those one sided agreements.
Reply #3 Top
Yes I was reading the protectorate ideas before of my own post just to see how much alike did it look like. Personally I don't find that much of a relation. Yes of course, you'd be doing the same basic stuff, giving up some of your sovereignty to other race; but it's in no way the same feeling.

Protectorates are just way too little compared to what actually surrendering would be. You could have any AI as your protectorate, but if you become one of the AI's protectorates it would become dull.. you lose your economic output, you lose your military strength, you lose your research output, all of this in exchange of a treaty that could just be broken because the AI feels its better, or gets paid well, or what not. Instead actually surrendering would make you terminate your own empire for a while, while not being entirely subyuged to some other power, except from time to time. Use your own influence points to win the elections within your own planets, appart from just giving them away for the UP votes. (Let's be honest, UP meetings are fun, interesting, and what not, but its still not as important if we think that you're actually not an empire any more, so giving away the UP votes would actually help you rather than hurt you, because the AI would pick the best for itself). Terminate agreements at any time as a protectorate doesnt really even sound like something that should happen.. its not like if you were signing just a research/econ treaty, it's giving your billions of citizens, planets, ships, etc.

I just don't think it'd be the same feeling at all. Protectorate idea is for the AI side of this much more than the human side. It's just like something to add some more strategy and options, not entirely change the way you could play your game.. I don't see the AI caring as much for protecting your planets if they're actually in their very own epmire as if they were just part of their protectorate (yes, AI can be set to give it the same importance, but it wouldn't feel right outside of the code.. if you were really leading an empire, would you go all out and throw your ships against a strong empire just because they're hitting a smaller not-so-beneficial friend of yours? On the other hand, if they were now actually hitting the now-your territory, you'd probably feel much different and actually risk it).

Remember that this is not just a matter of strategy and numbers, but also a matter of making the game feel logical and actually make you think "Well that's what i would've done if i was the AI". Give it a sort of feeling..
Reply #4 Top
I cant see the majority of Players rushing to use a surrender option, they have one already called "Cntrl-N"   
Reply #5 Top
Personally I feel that if you surrender - you lose.

Either fight it out to the last man, woman, child, ship and planet - or start a new game.

Being an 'overlord' to another civs worlds is pointless.
Reply #6 Top
I would perfer that there was no surrender or that the surrender option could be toggled for AI. Personally I would turn off surender and leave it off.
Reply #7 Top
that the surrender option could be toggled for AI


it can be.
Reply #8 Top
What you are suggesting is Vassalization pure and simple.
Reply #9 Top
What you are suggesting is Vassalization pure and simple.


Vassalization?? hehehe sounds like what my wife did to my skin the last time i had a rash!
Reply #10 Top
What you are suggesting is Vassalization pure and simple.
Vassalization?? hehehe sounds like what my wife did to my skin the last time i had a rash!


wasn't the use of vasaline that first jumped into my mind, given the drive of the discussion.

one problem with this suggestion is MV scoring.

and another is that the AI is supposed to play the same game as you. so why should it work different for a human?
Reply #11 Top
I also think that f an alien surrenders to another power or is completely conquered, a rebellion could happen. Hey! Maybe if you're completely conquered, it'd show the defeat screen then ask you to come up with a new name and country name (both of which have to be different than the previous) and you'd find yourself with a subsection of another empire 5 years later 9with all of the new techs that come with it) and when I say subsection I mean break-away
Reply #12 Top
i've always wondered why it doesn't piss the heck out of the attacking alien who doesn't get the surrender - and it seems more like assylum with you surrender to a friend, rather than surrender proper.
Reply #13 Top

If you surrender nothing else matters. The End,so why EVER do it?
G.G. peace out.
Reply #14 Top
i've always wondered why it doesn't piss the heck out of the attacking alien who doesn't get the surrender - and it seems more like assylum with you surrender to a friend, rather than surrender proper.


Yea good point,,, can you imagine in Babylon 5 how pissed off the Mimbari would have been at the Centauri if they accepted Earths surrender during the Earth Mimbari war?
Reply #15 Top
I also think that f an alien surrenders to another power or is completely conquered, a rebellion could happen. Hey! Maybe if you're completely conquered, it'd show the defeat screen then ask you to come up with a new name and country name (both of which have to be different than the previous) and you'd find yourself with a subsection of another empire 5 years later 9with all of the new techs that come with it) and when I say subsection I mean break-away


Yes, you get just your home planet, no ships and find yourself on the Minor Races tab.

Brian