I do. That was why I said I wasn't implying you meant anything by it. It was more the coincidental use of it under the circumstances.

And just so my question doesn't get lost since we've progressed to a new page...

One of the driving goals now is to be more welcoming to new artists and new users.  It's a simple fact that over time, community members will drop off.  Skinners get bored, move on, get hired etc.  The community we had in 2001 isn't the same we have now, some names have left, others have joined up.  It's time again to start growing the community.

We've learned a lot from sites like DeviantArt and Customize.org, both by viewing their successes and their mistakes.  We don't want to be either site, since part of our appeal is by not being a complete free-for-all, but we are able to recognize some of our own failings.  We could do more to invite in new people. 

Obviously, registered users are more important to us than anonymous users.  They're repeats, they're the ones who come back, the ones who may get involved on the forums, who may themselves eventually become skinners.  And the site serves two distinct and important audiences:  artists who create the work, and users who download and use it.  The first step to reach out to both audiences is to make the place more welcoming and friendly.  Our biggest hurdle to overcome in recent years has been the overwhelmingly negative reputation the site has built up.  We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly, and as unwelcoming to new users.  2007 is a big year for changing that, and we're trying to start at the top with policy and changes to the site.

We want to encourage registered users to stick around more, and convince anonymous users that this is a worthwhile site to join up and become a regular at.

This doesn't mean we're shoving the current community out the door.  Creating a more friendly and welcoming environment benefits everyone, from the oldest to the newest user or artist.

There are many of us that honestly feel that is what is happening. I do not speak for myself. 5 other long time skinners have expressed their feelings to me and they DO feel this way.

Some leave because of the very issues discussed here, as well.



Will they? If their stuff is being buried in with things that are borrowed/ripped/pasted etc,. ? This is what I started out with and a lot have chimed in in agreement.

I 'understand' what you are saying and what the site wants to do. But at what cost? Loosing a few skinners? Not having as many join because they don't want to get lost in the 'crap' they may have to compete with that is not original work but reposted, borrowed, or just 'unverified' as a rip?



I think a lot of sites are seen that way. I think it si mostly because they have established community's and people assume they are elitists because of the familiarity between the members or they just feel like they have to struggle to find their niche or group of peers they relate to. From WC, to DA, to a small site like SA where the members are very close.

Whom are we welcoming when the standards are loosened or lowered to allow work that normally wouldn't have made it through before and the site has to lower it's own expectations in order to allow this work in?

'The finest collection of Wallpapers on the Internet!'

Sigh. I would still love it if the work in question had it's own gallery. Or the option of it's own category with the ability to block it when viewing. What the site wants to do, I understand. At what cost or how the site goes about it, I may never understand. But for current members, customers, and artists...I would venture to say that the majority didn't join to view and download that kind of stuff. Putting the work in question in it's own place (or even the personal gallery of the uploader) would go further in welcoming new users and assuring current ones that 'Yes, we are taking these steps for these reasons...but we are also preserving the integrity of the site and our loyalty to it's registered members/customers and users'.

I suppose the only argument I hve to help me make my point is that I haven't seen anyone in this thread state that they would have a problem if the non-skinner/borrowed etc., work was separated from original work.

SO much of this reminds me of ThemeXP, It went from having all the best VS authors at the beginning, as they tried to increase traffic by loosening the guidlines for submissions the site got progressively worse very quickly as all the good core artists splintered off to smaller communites.

Yes it's important to have content, necessitous, and I know ThemeXP was a completely different business model but the same applies to any community. New people are not going to want to subscribe for a large collection of lower quality art. You start letting trash in and suddenly you look around and your surrounded by trash. It's been happening in communities and neighborhoods since the beginning of time. I am personally for more visitors as it will benefit me directly but imo, as they say...you should be careful what you ask for.

Nothing has changed...that has always been the case...though in the site's beginning there were far fewer people.

Compared with Devart....nothing here is really buried/lost at all....Devart will always win the rip-to-real-ratio over Wincustomize....

My post #154 is important, IMHO and I hope you (mods, admins) read it. I want to add one other thing.
Tying into all this with the 'personal gallery issue'. As frustrated as I would get at having a wall rejected, I tried to accept it and believe i did 99% of the time. (if not 100% with some mild whining lol)

You changed your guidelines. Having something sent to the personal gallery is one thing. I will consider that a rejection. It's fine. But now, I have to wonder what gets through that may have not met your standards before. Standards I had some confidence in. Opinions I had some respect for, even if I didn't agree. Now, it seems the 'bar' has been lowered. Personally, for me, it will have me second guessing my own work instead of going back and rethinking what once might have been rejected. I liked that I was 'pushed' once in a while. It's like someone you look up to saying, 'You can do better.'. This takes that away, a little bit. It diminishes the challenge that you don't have at DA that I would go as far to say, the challenge is what drew and/or draws some people here. No disrespect intended, but it sucks.

And I feel sorry for those that may want the same thing and now won't get it, and for those that will have to weed through some of the crap to find the stuff they were looking for when they came here.

To everyone else, I apologize if any of that crap turns out to be mine.




But compared to WC just in the past year, it's getting buried more than it used to.

Po...not everyone takes modding/criticism as well as you do.  There have been countless times people have said of my modding...."what right have you, some snotty teenager to decide whether my works are good or bad?"...and when you explain you started in graphics 30 or 40 years ago they say "so what?", and leave.

I, too would like to see 'finer art'...but the gallery is about wallpapers, not 'art' per se.... and it's not MY site....it's OUR site, and collectively what we are trying to do is to improve the enjoyment factor...at the expense of the smarmy "look at me...ain't I fantastic!" that was to a degree prevalent....

 

just for the record, I never got that impression about WC even WAY back, I was impressed and the work that i saw here motivated me to push harder and become a better skinner. A lot of the reason I didn't start making WBs long before was I was pushing myself to be as good before I showed my face. I didn't think of the community or anyone of the authors here as elitest. Your not going to lose skinners by lowering standards for the masses, more likely imo to lose the users.. the ad clickers and subscription buyers...the masses..I would venture that people in general would be more attracted to a library of quality skins than 10 libraries of inferior ones. Does anyone know anyone who wouldn't be?

Sounds like a poll.   

That's my point. The challenge of being able to have your work posted here. I know my stuff isn't 'great', but there was a degree of satisfaction when the mods put it through. You don't get that on a free-for-all site. Now, the 'bar' is lowered, as well as the level of satisfaction I would get. Yes, it's me talking personally. But I think...and I know I have seen it expressed...a lot of the artists feel the same way as far as the 'challenge'.

I'm not talking about 'fine' art. I'm talking about the things that are non-skinner works, reposts, cut and pastes, ports, etc. , being seperated from originl work by original authors.

If my gloating or reveling in one of my walls having passed moderation makes me an elitist, then I guess I am. 'Elitist' isn't always a dirty word.

Po,
Didn't mean to ignore the main point of your thread. I just had to get past the first issue. Yes, I would like to see it, but putting it into place would be as or more difficult than trying to sort out the dilema of "It's mine under a different name somewhere else" issue. The easy method would be to create a gallery called "Crap Walls" and stick em all in there, but then were back to Jafo getting hate mail. A "Fan Art" (which is dangerously close to shit because it's only a letter away from being FaArt)would help ease the suffering as those are easily classified and thus could be filtered from view if desired. A "Photography" category could aid with the others and give time for the mods to research the originality as needed.
In the past, WC has been very very skeptical and evasive when it comes to creating categories though.

Hopefully this will be in part solved with the new gallery pages.....Quote....by frogboy...But before that, what do you think of segregating the wallpapers from the skins so that skins don't get drowned out by wallpapers but at the same time people who really just want wallpapers can get them?
WinCustomize Homepage concepts

It is best not to ass u me that many of these skinners will want to be repeaters when over several months many posts have been created by skinners of varied programs with the exact same complaints mentioned in this thread.

In the forums Stardock & Wincustomize has made leaps & bounds but is sadly lacking when it comes to ensuring that quality work is made prominent in the newest gallery.

I am a down loader & reader, keep my Object Desktop & subscription up to date and help in the forums as my way of giving back. I do respect and support the skinners of original work and believe in every case it must be the most important part of this site.....No matter how hard WinCustomize tries to encourage new users by allowing low quality work....you will without question push both skinners & subscribers out the door. It is disturbing to see over time how the regular skinners works are buried. When I go to the newest section those are the people names I look for. It is wasting both my time & theirs to dig through so much to find the quality skins.....

Ok, the new users do not know their names or the type of quality work they put out.....and may never know because of so much flooding going on. And when your first view of the newest is flooded with low quality work, you expect nothing more, and those are not the type of skinners & artists that I or others according to this & many other posts on this site want either. Because without those quality skins, this place is worthless.

And the lower the quality of work you allow in the galleries, the lower the reputations of Wincustomize becomes. And those people do not become nor stay long time members of a site....they use it because they do not respect simple rules nor others in general.

So rather than new categories, or galleries per se.....not bc I don't want them....but without a doubt not wanted by either frogboy or WinCustomize in general.....then at least divide the newest gallery into 2 separate sections. Newest Original & Newest General (just a quicky idea for names)

This solves the issues of original work being highlighted & being the first thing new & regular users should see when selecting that gallery and allows the newer uploader's to see their own work in the newest gallery. And in effect allows us to avoid that area completely. IMO it would also show those new users what is important to this site & at the same time encourage newbies to make more original works.

It's My Secret

WC is in the damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.  You can't please everyone.  If your more strict, your branded an elitist site.   If you lower the standard, your letting crap in.  So your caught between a rock and a hard place.  So what do ya do?  Whats the solution?   Whatever it is, it won't please evryone.

If you truly are damned if you do and damned if you dont then I think I would choose elitest over crap.

Solution is not to move standards drastically either way. There aren't just 2 standards.. It merely needs refined to accommodate.. a middleground.

The only ones I hear 'against' seperating are the mods and admins, unless I have missed something, and I may have. And I do understand that it may be something just too big or difficult to deal with.



Even this would help.

'Our' input was asked for, the current users/members/subscribers. Now would be the time to implement any changes like this while the site is undergoing an overhaul.

My Secret, I agree with what you wrote.

As do I.

How about this, we separate wallpapers from the rest of the content on the "Newest" page?  That way walls don't push off icons, skins etc.

Here is the policy/solution I support:

1) Seperate wallpapers from other uploads.

Let's be honest about what the underlying issue really is here. The issue is that author A, having spent weeks working on something, can get their work flooded out by user B who is uploading tons of wallpapers they didn't even make. THAT is the main issue that needs to be addressed.

2) Fair use on wallpapers, boot screens, logon screens, and Dreams.

We are going to have to get tougher on people who aren't abiding by the terms of fair use. We allow fan art already. That is an established policy. 

As the owner of the site, it was getting too obnoxious having to go around to other sites in our "community" to get say a Spider-Man wallpaper or a Star Wars wallpaper when I know these things were being uploaded but rejected here.  To those who have a problem with that: Tough. Start your own site then. 

But this is NOT the same as someone who takes a frame out of a video or whatever and posts it as their own or posts something from someone else without adhering to the fair use statutes in the DMCA.  You MUST provide who made it and link to the original source. 

So that is something we'll have to enforce more strongly going forward.  But understand this: We are a site run by volunteers. Some of the attitudes and words that have been expressed to the volunteers is upsetting to say the least.  Have realistic expectation and be reasonable in your discourse.

The reason other sites don't have moderation isn't because they're more open. It's because it's cheaper and easier.   We do our best on moderation but we have to balance that with what resources we have. 

Most of people who comes here to spit on copyrights and permissions. They wish to receive beautiful skin.
So, make separate section for not author's works.

Then you will have to separate boot skins.
IE: Boot Skin Red - Bootskin blue - Bootskin pink - Bootskin yellow - Bootskin white- Bootskin offwhite - Bootskin purple-ish - Bootskin pinkykindapurpleblueish.
You see ? That will not really solve the problem of the skinner that works 3 weeks on a WB or 2 weeks on a DX Theme.




You (not you personally) may not be trying to do this but it does feel this way to a lot of people that have been here. Im not trying to blame anyone - but when someone puts a lot of hours into a skin - no matter how 'unimportant' the application may be in the grand scheme of things - it just feels like your just being tossed aside lately when you see your skin tossed up with the same rating as the skin next to it that was not even completely skinned - then when you actually d/load the skin its full of errors. It makes you feel like ' why bother ?'

I was glad to see that you said there has been some bugginess to the Wallpaper Gallery ,that could be half the problem and confusion. I remember you plainly stating that no walls under 2.5 rating would be in gallery - then I was seeing wall after wall with 1/2 star - 1 star - 2 star - sometimes 5 in a row in the Wall Gallery all by the same person. I gather that these are walls being sent to personal sites and the uploader doesnt have one?

Maybe an incentive to get people to subscribe would be to have separate wallpaper galleries for Subscribers and one for Visitors. The visitors walls could be uploaded to that Gallery with no rating. That way, no hurt feelings to the 'newbie' artist getting 1 star - and if they are really good at it then it might be an incentive to purchase a subscription.

It seems to me that most are glad the moderation is here and most acknowledge that it is often a volunteered and thankless job. That being said, it is the new additions to the product line, i.e., Dreams and the galleries they require that seems to be adding the over the top pressure and file checking burdens that can not really be handled in full guideline enforcement. If they are volunteers, why is that a drain on company resources?
Why not have more volunteers and even volunteers specialized in vid/loop or other Dream uploads?

I know what you mean Paul but the reality is that the 15 seconds rule is allowing some questionable work.

Funny...I had the exact opposite opinion of the site when I joined...so friendly,welcoming and encouraging that THAT convinced me to buy the software.

It was the high standards that kept me here and continually refining my work.

The opinions of the unwashed whiny masses should not affect standards.

yes.. and i believe this is the EXACT issue that I Posted on for the DX Widget gallery and all the flooding that one gets.

I thought we used to have check boxes to select the item(s) you wanted to show in the list, or not show.. could those come back???

I used to upload work to other sites but stopped for the very things that are beginning to happen here...I would rather be part of a smaller 'elitist' site than some repository of mediocrity.

As for "Tough,start your own site"...I am,and it will be very 'elitist'.Artist by invitation only.

I will always come here and upload here...this is my home away from home...I'm just concerned about what is happening to the neighborhood.