Thanks for the replies, pawnshop. I'm gonna have to start a list of setting twists to try so I can get out of my rut.

For example, I've always thought turning off tech trading seemed "unnatural," but enough folks call it "cheese" to make me wonder what bad smell I'm missing there.

And the nearly empty but huge map sounds very interesting--kind of an anti-universe to what I gather Mumblefratz typically plays. Although I suppose his swarm-of-starbases strategy might have even greater value with such scarce real estate.

been doing the same. keeps the game fresh.

there's no shortage ways to cheese the game. techtrading 'on' can be cheesed too. ie; selling longsince-proliferated technologies to minor civilizations for high profit. if the AI were capable of doing it too then it wouldn't be cheese. doesn't matter what settings are, if someone wants to cheese the game, its not that difficult to find a way.

but i like tech'off' cause it makes it a whole different ballgame. with tech'on' and very fast settings, techadvances happen too quickly. you can advance through an entire generation of technology before you ever use it. with tech'off' and very slow tech speed, it takes awhile to move through the tree, so when you're at war and you grind your way to that 2nd tier of weapon/defense technology + the next miniaturization^ + the next logistics^ + the next hull^, it feels like your civilization has reached a major milestone.

also you earn a tech for every planet you conquer from a civ that has techs you don't have (its realistic, as you usurp the opposing empire you gain all their knowledge and culture). with techtrade 'on' the feature is downgraded to insignificant. espionage is another feature that gets downgraded.

Hey! Real quick. Could somebody tell me how much the Dark Avatar thing costs.

don't worry about. just buy the damn game. It is worth it if they charged $50 for it, easy.

I realize that I may have no room to discuss with you as you play on a higher difficulty setting then me. That being considered, stock exchanges take planet tiles, trade routes don't. If you are making 20K a turn imagine if a fraction of that went into production because instead of incredible economy you made your limited tiles into factories, research centers, etc. so you could actually use some of that money.

Just because someone plays on a higher difficulty doesn't mean you can't comment on strategy. Don't feel like your opinion doesn't count just because you are still learning.

For what it is worth, on larger maps I also have the experience of trade not being worth it. The most I ever got from one route on a large map was 240/turn... and that route was 8 sectors long and was up for 6 years straight. At the same time, I had close to 50k in income from population and taxes, so the extra 2k I was getting from trade did little more than fund my spies.

Trade is still useful as a diplomatic tool, especially as you try to add up factors to get a race to "close" so you can get an alliance. May only be a few extra diplomacy points, but I find it matters.

On smaller maps trade is absolutely vital to your economy, and to overcoming the early game "crash" many people experience. Add in that from the tech you get extra diplomacy, the econ capital, AND can buff relations - and it becomes a vital part of overall strategy. On smaller maps.

I think the problem could be fixed if the distance of the route had a much greater effect on the value of the route. (For math nerds:) Currently, it appears to be a linear progression that is quite low. Make it an exponential progression, or a cumulative linear progression - and I think trade could become an important part of income on larger maps, assuming that on those larger maps you sent your traders very far away.

An interesting discussion though.

The thing to consider is that 20k per turn buys *alot* of ships and other material, and is more "flexible" than factory production. Let us also not forget that this economy is (potentially) also cranking out tons of research and Starships.

I have had this kind of monetary output and sacrificed *nothing* in the way of production or research, because that wealth comes from specialized "Banking planets", just as my ships come from specialized "Factory planets" and my technology from "Research Worlds".

Honestly, yeah. If you don't play huge and gigantic maps (I sure don't -- ridiculously boring and labor intensive), trade is extremely useful.

My take on trade routes may not be as well thought out as the rest of yours but it works for me, so here is my humble little bit:

Most of the value I place on trade routes is directly related to the Eyes of the Universe 'wonder'. I find the intel my freighters are able to provide with their uber-sensors is far more valuable to me than the income they generate.

I really don't know but I think it would be more. Naw, it would deffently be more.

I can't believe all these people that hate trade. Trade is so low maintenance. You just set the route and watch the cash roll in. It's great in early game after colonization when you want to crank your tax down to get high approval so your population skyrockets. You can crank your tax rate ridiculously low without going into red. At this stage I sometimes rely 100% on my 700-1000bc/wk trade income as my sole source of income. Once you're near max pop, crank the tax back up and reap in the cash from your population boom. Then you can invite some hot alien supermodels over to have sex on all your big piles of money. More trade income also = less need for econ projects = more room for manufacturing = faster ass kicking.

So you get free money, good relations with your neighbors, and more manufacturing capability all for very little work. And on top of that you get to make it with some hot alien chicks. And isn't that what man has dreamed of ever since he first looked up at the stars?

Bear in mind that (in Dark Avatar at least) there's a United Planets resolution which, if passed, dramatically increases trade revenue. Then there's random events which depress tax revenue but improve trade (or tourism).

You got that right man!  

Now *that* is a good tip.

I got a new post on trade if ya wanna check it out just use the link.WWW Link

I don't know about anyone else; but I sure have a dificualt time reading (without highlighting first) any quotes that are green on the gray quote box

From the Desk of Sugien CSK
_____/}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Striker Knight::::::>
`````\}

Those who don't like trading don't understand the purpose of trading. It is not all about profits as much as it is, diplomacy with other races. A race you trade with will be slower to declare war on you, and if you have quite a bit of trade with the most powerful threat, he'll wage war on everyone but you, while you build up to crush him like the bug he is. Incite others to war with someone who is threatning you and you will see the threat warm up to you because they can't afford a war on too many fronts. They'll eventually kill off each other - or weaken the strongest threat against you - all while you merrily (and innocently) go about your business of trading with both sides of the conflict. KEY TO TRADING ON BIG MAPS: Create special FAST freighters (Warp Drive and above) for big maps, they'll come and go like a normal freighter on the smaller maps.

Why does this thread keep getting resurrected? It's been bumped about three times.