As crappy as the reviews were, I friggin' loved Fantasy General! The free and almost open-source Battle for Wesnoth is similar, but not quite the same. Come on, Brad, you have to give us a few tantalizing details as to what your team is envisioning creating! Please please please.

It's not likely we're going to do a MOM2 due to the licensing issues with Atari at this stage. But we are working on an unnamed fantasy 4X strategy game.

Can't just buy Atari at this stage there stock is only 56 cents a share.

Dominions 4?

Fantasy 4X games, at least in the traditional definition, are actually in short supply. I really can't think of any other than Master of Magic.

Fantasy General was a war game, while games like HoMM and Age of Wonders don't really qualify as 4X in my book. You're just capturing pre-established cities and using them to crank out more combat units. None of them feel like you're running an actual fantasy empire, and they lack any sense of building things from the ground up.

Dominions may be closer, bit it still seems a bit different.

But we are working on an unnamed fantasy 4X strategy game.

You "are" working? That's present tense, as opposed to "will be" working on?

Okay, it's probably just preliminary stuff, but it still makes me happy!

I registered just to nag about Mom2. Please. Master of Magic is a classic. It's up there with civilizations. It's fantastic. Could you please make the "unnamed fantasy 4X strategy game" somewhat similar to Mom? Within legal bounds of course.

Why don't anyone make a sequel? It would sell, not just to all the old fans of the original, but to a new audience as well. It fills an empty niche.


Oh, and does anyone know what happens with the mom2rallypoint and the mom-forum? Realms of hope is gone too.

Thanks.

It's up there with civilizations.

Sid Meir's Civilization spawned a huge array of competitors in addition to its own big-name series. MoM was every bit as fine a game in its day as Civ, IMO. I've yet to see a 4X game that had as nice an RPG component as the different wizards and magic schools in MoM.

Why don't anyone make a sequel?

Probably because bean-counting suits at the company that owns the rights to the franchise crunch their numbers and decide that these sorts of games are too risky. So instead they devote their resources to yet another WWII game, or tactical shooter, or any number of other games I've never considered buying.

We have to wait for companies like Stardock, which is privately held and thus not answerable to bean-counting suits, to come along and make these sorts of games.

Sid Meir's Civilization spawned a huge array of competitors in addition to its own big-name series. MoM was every bit as fine a game in its day as Civ, IMO. I've yet to see a 4X game that had as nice an RPG component as the different wizards and magic schools in MoM.

This may sound like heresy to a lot of you, but I would say that MoO, MoM, Galciv, and a host of other 4x games handedly beat Civilization. I find that Civ tends to get royally bogged down late game. I consider the extent of which a 4x gets bogged down to be the greatest measure of its worth.

I also really don't get why Sid has to keep pumping out new Civ games. I mean, each new game is pretty much the same as the one before, except slower. So now if you go out and buy the new Civ game the moment it comes out, you get a 4x that gets bogged down late game, and has fairly slow turns, which get slower as you get into later stages of the game. Not a good combination. In fact, I would pick Civ II or III over IV just because IV is so much slower in comparison.

Maybe not heresy, but I think that late game bogs applies for MoM too. The difference here is the better graphics and more "Epic" feel of civ. I bet that, if a Mom2 finally appears some day, it will have the same problem. It will probably have much better graphic than is needed and thus tend to be slow on lower-end computers. Also, a more epic feel to MoM 2 would probably be on demand from many fans. A lot of people here ask for a Mom with updated graphics, more retorts and spells but mostly similar to Mom. I don't think that'll happen, and also, what would be the point of that? It has to be updated in a number of aspects, just adding more of the same or simply make it XP compatible wouldn't do the trick. First of all, the diplomacy in Mom is awfull. It's just plain random. You can have ex. Horus praise you one turn, and for no appaerent reason he declares war the next turn, this is rather strange when he is categorized as "peaceful" etc. The graphics of course would need to be updated, the AI and Diplomacy would need to be tuned, and without something "brand new" this would mean that you could just download Implode's clone instead.

I would really like to see a Mom2 that remains true to the original concept, but which fixes a few flaws. The only thing that makes me sceptical about a potential sequel is that it will probably be multiplayer. That might sound like a good thing, but the downside to this is that it will probably make the game to balanced and thus slightly less enjoyable than the original. For instance, Gnoll's in MoM just plainly sucks, Death magic is (in my opinion) the least powerfull school of magic and so on. But balancing the game out would make it bland and dull in the long run.

But balancing the game out would make it bland and dull in the long run.

Maybe, but that's not a given. Take Starcraft; perfect balancing, three interesting and unique factions.

I think that late game bogs applies for MoM too

Of course. The late game bog applies to every 4x game, and it takes great skill on the part of the developer to minimize how much the game bogs down as it progresses. So far, no 4x has had as much success in this area as MoO 1. That is why I believe MoO 1 to be the best 4x game ever created; there is virtually no bog.

MoM has more bog than MoO does, and I think the developers were aware of that. Perhaps that is why they limited you to four computer opponents down from five in MoO.

Also, a more epic feel to MoM 2 would probably be on demand from many fans.

I agree, and I believe that MoM would really lend itself to an epic feel. If combat were made to resemble the battles in the Total War series, with hundreds or thousands of units per side, you could really accomplish that. I don't think that you would need to make any of the other game play elements more complicated, but a graphical overhaul with better balancing, more spells, more wizards, more customization, more items, etc. would do. In fact, you could probably do some streamlining of the game, and an interface tailored to a higher resolution could help in that area.

I agree, and I believe that MoM would really lend itself to an epic feel. If combat were made to resemble the battles in the Total War series, with hundreds or thousands of units per side, you could really accomplish that. I don't think that you would need to make any of the other game play elements more complicated, but a graphical overhaul with better balancing, more spells, more wizards, more customization, more items, etc. would do. In fact, you could probably do some streamlining of the game, and an interface tailored to a higher resolution could help in that area.

If huge armies were to be graphically represented (and possibly in 3D) during every battle, don't you think this would make the game slow, bogged down etc? Especially during the late stages of the game where you in theory could have hundreds of united sprawling around the map.

Another soulution would be to make the game "slower" in terms of development, say that instead of 10 turns to build a granary it could take 15. Again, this could make the game boring due to lack of action, so it's a rather difficult issue to solve.

Another thing, customizable units would be awesome. Kind of like Moo.

If huge armies were to be graphically represented (and possibly in 3D) during every battle, don't you think this would make the game slow, bogged down etc?

This is easily fixed by giving the user the choice to skip tactical combat.

@Jeff Graw: I don't remember exactly why, but something about MoO2 made me forgive the increased end-game bogging. You're right about the big point though: I haven't seen or heard of a 4X game that has an end-game as lively as the opening expansion rush. But I'm not giving up hope--the Stardockers really seem to read these forums, and are hopefully thinking about really long games even if they can't make the time to play them.

Re the MoM branding crap, I highly recommend reading the Gamasutra interview with Brad that's currently linked from the home page here (it covers *lots* more than MoM). They discuss the Atari/MoM situation in the first or second page. The problem really does seem to boil down to marketing twits interfering with people wanting to do useful work.

Atari actually wanted review powers over all Stardock "marketing," maybe even including things like that interview. I think a CEO and lead developer who's so willing to jump into freewheeling discussions with his customers really disturbs the overdressed PowerPoint junkies

I find it unlikely that anyone would want to skip the tactical battles. Unless of course the AI was extremely good. You would loose too many anoying battles that way.

I don't remember exactly why, but something about MoO2 made me forgive the increased end-game bogging.

I found a lot of cool ideas in MoO 2, but nothing that was able to undo the damages done by the bloated planetary management screen, which was, IMHO, the root cause of the bloating.

I find it unlikely that anyone would want to skip the tactical battles.

IMO, that can't be said until we see the system, and the answer probably will depend on your play style.

If you have a bad habit of relying on overwhelming force and the game continues the 4X tradition of getting boggy in the long run, I can easily imagine letting the AI run tactical.

I don't actually mind that much if the game gets bogged down in the late stages. It's natural. I can think of much worse things than that in a game. And also, even though the game should be bogged down, you could always include some guvernour feature to help to smooth things out.

Btw, I read in an interview with Brad that they would want 5000 people to preorder if they were to make MoM2. Maybe they have gone away from that, but there's got to be at least 5000 people worldwide who'd want this game!? 5000 is nothing. Avant Garde jazz sells more than that. The Mom2 petition has to be signed by nearly that by now.

Btw, I read in an interview with Brad that they would want 5000 people to preorder if they were to make MoM2.

Well, that is very old news. If you read the Gamasutra interview, you will see that the next 4X game made by Stardock won't be Galciv3, unless I have misunderstood something.

Brad's unusually plain-spoken for a CEO and I'm pretty sure you got him correctly. An as-yet-unnamed fantasy 4X game is the next big Stardock game project.

Yes, but is it Mom2 ?

Even if it isn't it seems obvious that Stardock employes actually reads this forum, so perhaps it's time to start writing down wishing lists?

- Customizable units. Moo\galciv2 style. Dependant on race and tech.
- Better AI
- Better Diplomacy

but is it Mom2

In terms of branding, definitely not according to the Gamasutra interview. In terms of functionality, that probably depends on what you mean by "a new rev" (Version 2) for software. For some folks, that means major improvements, for others major changes, and still others expect both.

In the interview, Brad is quoted saying "I think that there's a strong market for a fantasy strategy game that has some of the elements of Master of Magic like random maps and building your own cities. It's not really a competitor to an Age of Wonders or Heroes of Might and Magic, they're completely different game mechanics."

Adding customizable units could be interesting, enabling players to cook up things like Trollocs or Uruk Hai. It'd be really cool if Stardock can build something like the critter-constructor I've seen in video demos for Spore. But the old MoM spell books included stuff that amounts to unit customization, if I recall rightly (it's been *forever* in Internet time since I played that fine game).

Well, you could enhance your creatures with enchantments, but that doesn't really count as customizing in my opinion. What I'm thinking is as follows:

Let's say you play as Elves (or similar) you have access to wood, admantium and control a green node. You could then customize a unit consisting of 1 - 6 units ( depending on their size) ex. 6 light archers, 1 big "troll" or something. It could be equiped with ex. bows since you control wood and have the "archery" tech. Or upgraded to have magic arrows (ex "entangle") due to the green node. The possibilities are nearly endless here. Also, this adds to the replay value.

If you have random maps, can customize the wizard (books\retorts) and customize units and magic items, have loads of different races to choose from etc you would never get tired of the game. That's what I think anyway.

That is a shame that you had to cancel MoM 2. I registered on your forum just to say this, in fact I tracked down the rumor of a Stardock sequel from the Master of Magic Wiki.

Please, for all the fans create this "unnamed" fantasy game in the spirit of MoM.

And oh yeah, I plan on giving everyone I can possibly contact at Atari a piece of my mind about this as well. I've got your back Stardock.

There is an old Mom2 petition around somewhere. I think it's on www.thanesgames.com or something. A lot of people (but not nearly 5k) have signed it to date, but it's an old petition, and perhaps it has no function anymore. I don't know.

I agree with mwrosser. A game in the spirit of Mom would be fantastic, even if it's not exactly mom2.

Would anyone from Stardock care to perhaps give us a glimmer of hope? At least something like: "We like the idea." ?

There are only 3-5 games I have played every year for the last 10-12 years. Those are Championship Manager\Football Manager, Civilization and Master of Magic. Of those the most impressing is definitly Master of Magic, since it has not been updated in that time where as for the other two they have been released in new packings all the time. I think that says something.

Games like Stronghold (the old SSI), Master of Magic, Fantasy General, Populus, Master of Orion etc, they were unique. Games like that haven't been made in years, with a few exceptions like GalCiv. I'm pretty excited about this game Spore though, but I probably haven't got the PC to play it.

So, what would the rest of you like to see in a Mom-ish game?

Would anyone from Stardock care to perhaps give us a glimmer of hope?

Frogboy says above

But we are working on an unnamed fantasy 4X strategy game.

For a few more MoM-related details, read the early part of the Gamasutra interview with Brad Master of the Galaxy