Stardock got ill, has it gotten better yet?

trying to get Stardock to recognise that deleting half of the installed Window Blinds skins off of my computer was a bad idea.

Still absorbing the rest, so I'll query here. Your downloaded skins got deleted? Mine never did, I still have skins going back to 2003 when I 1st downloaded. I just told SDC not to archive the skins.

Like Bichur, I've never had my WindowBlinds deleted (on the contrary, deleting a blind via the Advanced Windowblind Configuration dialog still leaves the files intact), although I did lose a lot of work when I upgraded to DesktopX Pro and the uninstall/reinstall process removed the default storage folders (now I store DX projects far away from the DX folder).

And, I have to say I feel your pain with ObjectBar. I would love to use this more than I do, but so many things have given me trouble I stopped trying to tweak my bars, and now they are little more than shortcut docks that can use my current WB skin. And the trayserver.exe, sdmcp.exe, etc. thing still gets questions in the forums. I got an OD dock set up that shows my SysTray, and haven't touched it or anything that might affect it since.

I haven't used the launcher apps, nor have I tried contacting StarDock support via email, yet. Usually I can find a solution searching the forums, newsgroups, or on IRC. Some current issues may deign an email soon, though.

In general I have to say I am very happy with StarDock software. There are many little apps I don't use or haven't even tried. Sometimes I wish ObjectDesktop wasn't quite so object oriented and a more unified whole could be established.

On the whole I have found it to be well worth the money, but must also agree that some things seem to be neglected.

Maybe it's BECAUSE I am not an IT Professional/programmer/whatever....and maybe because I have 7 years of experience with 'radical' system modification and skinning that I never have problems with lost WB skins, etc.....simply because I take the hands-on approach of common sense....manually backing up anything that might just potentially go gaga in an update/modification.  It's probably why I'll often have 6 or 7 full alternate shells to hop into...when one or another goes belly-up during 'tweaking', though these days Task Manager is a lot easier.

I don't use all that many of Stardocks various softwares....but those I do have been known to have developmental bugs....they ARE works in progress, not static Apps. as such, so they are expected.

Generally I have always classified GUI modding software as non mission-critical for Office productivity and will be far more piqued when actual officeware goes all wobbly....and there's a litany of those...I still have a few proggies I actually NEED that are decidedly iffy at times....but the SD progs I use are not amongst them.

Needless to say, my system is not exactly bare-bones or clean-install... there are five alternate file managers, for example, currently 4 shells, 6 media players, and 59 games/demos.

SD's stuff isn't having issues with those.....so are they 'ill'?  Not from this medical chart....

I am not a "coder" in any way, so my viewpoint is more hardware based.

I use IconPackager, and ObjectDock (for desktop quick links, with no magnification) - on a daily basis, and I use either the Luna shell theme, or a WindowBlind skin (with no real tweaking, just a skin applied).

I have a reasonable amount of productivity software installed (Office, Adobe products, Corel products) and with the exception of Painter IX* and Poser , I have not seen any issues with WindowBlinds that were due to the program.

*Issue is the Window - Minimize, Max/Restore, Close - buttons do not do anything (perhaps based on a drawing method?).

Because I see hardware performance as a big issue, and I use the Stardock software to customize my GUI feel and appearance, I use the software in such a way that it enhances my experience and does not degrade the performance I expect from my machine.

From this point of view, I feel Stardock software is actually adding value to my computing experience - especially with the aforementioned fact by Jafo that the software is indeed a "work in progress".

A couple questions I would have for a programmer would be:

1 - Do you feel that there are sufficient options available in the software to control the performance of the software from basic to advanced functionality - i.e., enable/disable animations, sounds, transparencies to accomodate hardware configurations, or is there some functionality that could be added to provide compatibility to a wider user base?.

2 - Can you offer some suggestions (to Stardock software designers) towards improvement of the bugs that you encounter, or are you limited to identifying and replicating bugs?

As for ObjectBar, it seems to me that with DesktopX and ObjectDock Plus in place - the issue may simply be developing enough differing functionality to go to market with it?

As for ObjectBar, it seems to me that with DesktopX and ObjectDock Plus in place - the issue may simply be developing enough differing functionality to go to market with it?

OB has long been my favorite application after windowblinds.  I keep hoping that much of the functionality it used to offer will come back.  I have ObejectDock Plus, I have right click, I have and love DesktopX.  ObjectDock is a shadow of the power OB used to provide.  WB is the program that brought me to Stardock, OB is the one that kept me.  I thought it would have been 'at market' long before OD+.  There is no reason that the development of one program should preclude or diminish the development of another. 

There is a lot of lost power there, there is a lot of undeveloped power.  OD+ sits unused on my computer while I have a patched together version of OB that is in constant use.  Going to market with one great program shouldn't have to mean the demise of another.

I'll keep waiting and hoping.

OB is currently at 1.99d[b].002 which I assume is not far from 2.0 final release. Be aware though W98/ME is no longer supported. I haven't used OB in ages though I do have it installed. Maybe I should give it a go

Notepad: is this the mis-alignment of the toolbar button and the 'File' text? I note this occurs in other progs such as Paint, Wordpad etc, and happens to others such as 'Edit' in Calculator. An irritating bug which has been around as long as I can remember. Maybe it's an O/S problem which can't be fixed?

first the WB skins disappearing - if you are lucky this has now been fixed. from memory (i have the relevant email somewhere) when upgrading from a release to beta build of WB the installer would *delete* all WB skins that the release build had installed.

i have the install logs to prove this was happening, i recall emailing them to Stardock in one of my "hitting the roof" emails *rolls eyes*

backing up you WB skins is a good measure, but you need to restore them before they work. if the following is true:

* you are using one of the skins installed with WB as your main skin
* you perform one of these "destructive" (my word) WB upgrades
* reboot

when you come back you are faced with using a rather defective system to restore the deleted skins from the backup you had better pray you had made. it took me ages to find out exactly what was happening here. perhaps i am rare in actually liking some of the default skins that shipped with WB.


Jafo i agree about broken software, i know that pain. from my perspective one of the things you get when you purchase software is support. would you agree that this is a reasonable expectation? i am trying to be fair and reasonable, even when i don't always feel it *sigh* *lopsided smile*

this is one of my biggest, and most basic complaints, the fact that i cannot even get Stardock to confirm that bugs exist in the software, let alone get some concept of the time scale in which they might be fixed. again perhaps this is an unreasonable expectation???


fuzzy, i had considered renewing my OD subscription since within the 12 months it would run they were "bound" to release OB2, and actually fix some of the bugs in it. the first OB2 beta came out in December 2004, and there has been very little movement as far as i can tell since then. any one want to offer odds that there will be a final release with bug fixes before December 2005? i don't fancy paying 2 years subscription in the hopes of getting a build of OB2 i can work with.

fuzzy you are right about the offset menu, but this IS the fixed version of WB4. the bug was introduced with WB4, and effects keyboard access of the menu's in all programs that use basic menus. you think that is bad? you should have seen it for the first 8 months (time scale approx, from memory). you would get big ugly gray rectangles all over your menu bar every time you opened a menu with the keyboard.


Corky_O an interesting question about the bugs, but without access to and knowledge of the source code all i can really do is identify the bugs, and provide detailed information on how to reproduce them. the first rule of bug fixing is to reproduce the bug

i am happy to offer constructive advice, but i have limits with regard to how much talking to a brick wall i am prepared to do.


*considers*

in summary i have two basic core complaints about my Stardock experience, plus a 3rd "special case" one. i would be interested in how other people view these, in case they feel i am being unreasonable in my expectations:

a) the software should come with support, specifically bug reports should be acknowledged in some meaningful way, and bugs should be fixed

the company should not promise things that do not appear, since if i make a financial decision based on a promise, and then end up out of pocket i am going to be very unhappy

c) the "special case", DO NOT delete things i am using! i have confirmed by reading the upgrade logs that Stardock Central likes to delete both my WB skins and also "trayserver.exe". call me over protective if you will, but i REALLY do not like this! actually, hands up anyone who DOES like this? i would like to do a quick head count, to see if i am in the minority here.

*reads the email from stardock trying to get me to buy desktop X pro for my programming needs...*

i am going to go and have a lie down in a dark room for a few days, and think calm thoughts.

feline,

a = I agree that support should be available for products purchased without a "not supported" statement prior to purchase. The customer service policy would then dictate the level and method of support.

b = If a promise was made, and not simply a reference to an intended release, then I would prefer an expanation for any deviation from the promise.

c = My experience does not pre-date WB version 4, so I have only current knowledge of uninstalling procedure. I do know that uninstalling WindowBlinds via Stardock Central (leaving the "Delete all files including skins, themes and saved games" option unselected), will result in 5 of the 13 prepackaged skins being left in the WB sub-directory. Not sure why 8 would be removed, but it may be a "package" deal, where they are considered to be a part of the program, and not extra added value.

Note - based on the information given by Stardock informing the user of his/her responsiblity for backing up files for future use - given during the purchase procedure, I see no basis for considering any arguements for bad advertising or mis-representation by Stardock here.

I would go so far as to say that any user who has been around computers for a while should already be in the habit of backing up files to protect data. It is actually easier to copy the skin folders to the sub-directory after installing the program, rather than to go through downloading and installing a skin again (with of course, the exception of pre-packaged skins which are installed with the program).

A good thought provoking thread.

Acknowledgement of bugs would be nice so we don't have to file them over and over again.

point b is an interesting linguistic point. how should i, or any customer, view the news splashed all over the front page of wincustomize of the imminent release of OB2? am i being unfair in viewing this as something i should place faith in? or should i take the view that all statements about "we are going to release X" should be taken as marketing hype, and thus ignored?

i have always viewed them as statements that i should trust, but perhaps i am incorrect in this action, and thus i am feeling unreasonably irritated about the lack of a slew of bug fixes?

*considers* i suppose this comes down to a matter of trust. there are some people where i don't trust a word they say. it is sad to think that i need to place stardock product announcements into the same category.

c = My experience does not pre-date WB version 4, so I have only current knowledge of uninstalling procedure.

*ah* but it gets better! when the skins were being deleted i was NOT un-installing WB, i was simply installing a WB update over the top of my existing WB installation...

if i had been performing an un-install then watching skins disappear would not be so surprising.

I would go so far as to say that any user who has been around computers for a while should already be in the habit of backing up files to protect data. It is actually easier to copy the skin folders to the sub-directory after installing the program, rather than to go through downloading and installing a skin again (with of course, the exception of pre-packaged skins which are installed with the program).

*engages sarcasm mode* re-downloading is the sensible options, since no one ever makes changes to installed skins, due to their opaque binary nature, and the complete absence of any form of skin editor *tries to turn off sarcasm*

*oh* but there is a skin editor, i recall stardock making a great fuss about it on many occasions... i will admit that before taking any dangerous action i should back up any skin changes i have made. perhaps i was young and foolish in thinking that a WB update was a safe action *sigh*

back in the days of component manager (the predecessor to stardock central) after many complaints about skin changes being wiped out by updates all OB (and i believe) all WB updates would stick a big box on the screen asking you if you wanted your skins updated, and warning you that this would wipe out any changes you had made if you said yes.

yet another rather useful feature that seems to have been sacrificed in the name of "its a new version" *sigh* still, i am amazed that this feature, introduced as a direct response to customer complaints was removed.

perhaps there is just an unbridgeable philosophical gap between me and stardock, and that my views on these points are unique. which is really one of the main points of this thread, to ask, and see if people think i am being deeply unreasonable in my views.

i know that i my job as customer support i work hard to make sure that bug reports are replied to, even if (as is often the case) the reply is "i cannot reproduce this". the interesting thing about bugs i cannot reproduce is that often i can reproduce them with more details form the end user *hint to stardock* *HINT* *HINT*.

people post saying they appreciate my work, so i presumed that this was how good customer support was supposed to work.

*engages sarcasm mode*

I like that, it is very honest.

I suppose you could say that my thinking on any purchased product is this:

- Purchase the product

- Read the literature available in both electronic and hard-copy forms (including an FAQ's on the web site if offered).

- Use the product

- Try to troubleshoot to the best of my ability

- Request support when needed

- Request direct contact from support if no answer, starting with the first issue

If all these fail, then I would feel slighted.

I am thinking that the archiving feature available in Stardock Central, combined with the literature offered in the FAQ's addresses a majority of the usual circumstances a customer will run into.

Stardock is clear in the FAQ section for Stardock Central, that the user should create archives, then move the BACKUP folder containing the archive to another location to insure the ability to reinstall said archives. I am thinking that for any modified skins, the user would want to create an archive (or simply save the skin under a new name) and move it to a safe location. This should negate any overwriting done by an install, or uninstall procedure - and allow repopulation of those modified skins.

Customer support would also be based on human resources as well. If the demand becomes greater than the supply, obviously some issues may be delegated to the automatic, electronic response system - with follow ups as soon as possible.

I would say that you have a point in the expectation of a verification of either (1) reproduction of bug could not be accomplished, or (2) bug was reproduced successfully and perhaps an additional request for information.

The only issue I had was that uninstalling IconPackager was leaving the default Windows icon (unknown file) displayed for all executible files.

I contacted Stardock Tech Support, and received an e-mail from Brian Harper (IconPackager developer). A number of e-mail contacts between the two of us resulted in the finding of a registry key "IconHandler" in existence, which was creating the issue - I believe it may have written by NextStart software which I had tried.

After deleting this key (NextStart was uninstalled previously), all icons were restored to the correct ".ico" file after uninstalling IconPackager. I can now install/uninstall IconPackager to my hearts content with no ill effects.

Needless to say, I am an avid fan of IconPackager, and would not want to go without.

I have been writing a series of mini tutorials for beginners, so perhaps I could include some more specific publications that outline safe backup practices for customized skins, etc.

I'm not even sure where to start.

I spent *months* trying to get Stardock to recognise that deleting half of the installed Window Blinds skins off of my computer was a bad idea. Perhaps I am biased, but I would have thought that "leave the customers data alone" would be a basic premise all sensible computer companies would adhere to.

Stardock Central on uinstall does not delete skins. When you choose to uninstall WindowBlinds, it asks you if you want to remove your existing skins or not (by default it doesn't).

I have no idea what you're talking about with regards to WindowBlinds and notepad.  I'm not aware of any problems with WindowBlinds and notepad.

Keyboard LaunchPad works very well as far as we know.  I rely on it extensively on my work machine. 

It's not like Object Desktop doesn't get updated regularly.  In the past 30 days these programs have been updated:

IconPackager, ObjectEdit, The virtual desktops beta, SKinStudio Pro, Theme Manager. 

And if we add 5 more days to that you get WindowBilnds 4.6, RightClick, the enhance ddialog beta and IconX. 

I agree that ObjectBar has taken a long time to get out. It's a frustration here too. I've been waiting for Longhorn for years too. Software sometimes runs late.  And no software product is perfect. This is especially true on desktop customization software.  Based on the system, software, and hardware configuration there's always going to be something someone runs into in all likelyhood. 

And other issues are simply a matter of having to choose between two bad options.  TrayServer, for instance, was replaced by MCP because too many programs these days that use the system tray add themselves in a way that TrayServer wasn't designed to handle (MCP resolves this) and TrayServer has all kinds of other problems. So we got rid of it from SDC.  But ObjectBar 1.6 still uses it for those users who use that particular feature of it (ObjectBar 2 beta, which IMO is better than 1.6 uses MCP).  That does'nt stop someone from having TrayServer running somewhere else though.

But if you're running into WindowBlinds problems with Notepad, then I don't know what to tell you.  Similarly, if updating WindowBlinds is wiping out your skins then you have some serious problems going on too that I'm not aware of.  I update WB several times a week on internal builds without problem.  If WB was wiping people's skins out on an update the forums would be a riot.

this is one of my biggest, and most basic complaints, the fact that i cannot even get Stardock to confirm that bugs exist in the software, let alone get some concept of the time scale in which they might be fixed. again perhaps this is an unreasonable expectation???

Let me tell you something Feline, as the CEO of Stardock, I don't want you to buy any more of our software -- ever.  People like you are the kind of people that make me not want to go to the office. Not because I think you're a bad guy or that you're mean or something.  But simply because I think your threshold of support is beyond what can be realistically provided for a $50 product. And hence users like you are far more likely to go around killing sales by making our software, which DOES work fine for most people (PC Magazine Editor's Choice Award two years running) appear as if it's buggy and unsupported.  Some users simply have support requirements that are too expensive to handle. 

We don't fix bugs? Let's take the DesktopX 3.1 change log as one example:

- Added Object.CommandParams property.
- The Script editor can now Save & Apply and stay opened. Great for testing and debugging.
- Added Object.Group property.
- Widget preferences are available for design purpose in Builder mode now.
- Added Forms. Forms are input boxes whose elements work like Preferences items.
Example:
Set frm = DesktopX.CreateForm
frm.AddPreference "Text1"
frm.Preference("Text1").Type = "Text"
frm.Preference("Text1").DefaultValue = "Sample text pref"
frm.Preference("Text1").Caption = "Default text"
frm.Preference("Text1").Description = "This is a sample description, bla bla bla"
frm.Prompt
msgbox frm.Preference("Text1").value
- Higher decoupling between DesktopX and IconX.
- Added preference type "Hotkey".
- Hotkey registration support.
Usage:
Object.RegisterHotkey hotkeyID, frm.Preference("hotkey").Value
...
Object_OnHotkey(id)
...
Object.UnregisterHotkey hotkeyID
- Fixed crash problem with Widget Controller scripts.
- Pro EXEs can maintain their status (position etc) across reloads.
- Safer SD ActiveX controls registration across DesktopX and gadgets deployment.
- Added OnKeyDown and OnKeyUp to all SD ActiveX controls. This should make tabbing navigation and
other things possible,

- Added Client to Builder and viceversa tray menu shortcut.
- Added Widget.StandardPreferencesOptions to disable the standard preference options. Sets to a combination of:
Const STDPREF_NOOPACITY = &H00000001
Const STDPREF_NOSHADOW = &H00000002
Const STDPREF_NOZORDER = &H00000004
Const STDPREF_NOHUE = &H00000008
Const STDPREF_NOACCESSIBILITY = &H00000010
Const STDPREF_NOAUTORUN = &H00000020
- Vector text objects can now have a limited size.
- Widget.OnTop to put the whole widget on top of the system zorder.
- Added Object and States().SetFont fontname, fontsize, bold, italic, underline, strikeout, charset
- Added Object.Comments.
- Added "Color" preference type.
- Added readonly Object and States().FontName, .FontSize, .FontBold, .FontItalic, .FontUnderline and .FontStrikeout. For setting them use States.SetFont.
- Fixed a screen repositioning problem.
- Fixed auto security enable after shutdown on Secured desktops.
- Added "font" preference type.
- Added DesktopX.GarbageCollection.

- Added Preference("name").ResetList to clear all values added with .AddValue
- Fixed crashing on non english languages.
- Fixed some widget bugs.
- Improved IconX/DX interoperability.
- Minor changes in systray menu.
- Update DesktopX Helper.
- Added DesktopX Builder Palette.

It's not like we're sitting around here.  Take ObjectBar 2 as an example, we have to deal with a TON of different components that are very complex that most software simply doesn't have to deal with since we're desktop enhancements.  The virtual desktop component gets delayed because MS's anti-spyware program uses some hack that screws up our VDM technology. This requires a lot of time and energy to sift through. The VDMs in turn affect ObjectBar which in turn delays it.  But at the same time, it's not like we don't have a working ObjectBar out there.  ObjectBar 1.6 is already out there and works pretty well.  And the change log between it and ObjectBar 2 is immense.  We're not just making a few cosmetic changes and slapping a new version on it.

perhaps there is just an unbridgeable philosophical gap between me and stardock, and that my views on these points are unique. which is really one of the main points of this thread, to ask, and see if people think i am being deeply unreasonable in my views.

I think you have unreasonable expectations or at the very least, don't know how to reasonably convey your expectations.  I will be the first to admit that there are certainly problems out there that exist on some user's specific machine that we can't reproduce.  But to extrapolate that out as to meaning we aren't somehow responsive to customer input, problems, and feedback is offensive.  

I mean I'm sorry but if you find Keyboard LaunchPad inadequate then I don't know what to say, I rely so heavily on that program that I can't imagine how someone could possibly complain about it.

It bears repeating -- in a given month we put out an immense number of updates, fixes, and enhancements.  We do it month after month.  And we do it all for $50.  Meanwhile, my favorite $600 paint package still crashes regularly on me on multiple machines if I have too many layers on it.  It's a well known problem that has been in their last two major versions that their forums are full of.  EVERY piece of software has some problems for someone.  If you can show me a developer that's cranking out more fixes, updates, and enhancements than we are for $50, please feel free to share it with us.

in summary i have two basic core complaints about my Stardock experience, plus a 3rd "special case" one. i would be interested in how other people view these, in case they feel i am being unreasonable in my expectations: a) the software should come with support, specifically bug reports should be acknowledged in some meaningful way, and bugs should be fixed the company should not promise things that do not appear, since if i make a financial decision based on a promise, and then end up out of pocket i am going to be very unhappy c) the "special case", DO NOT delete things i am using! i have confirmed by reading the upgrade logs that Stardock Central likes to delete both my WB skins and also "trayserver.exe". call me over protective if you will, but i REALLY do not like this! actually, hands up anyone who DOES like this? i would like to do a quick head count, to see if i am in the minority here.

a) Our software comes with a vast array of support, particularly compared to other companies.  We have email, we have phone, we have forums, we even have a chat room where devs hang out in.  Bugs are reported, they are prioritized and they are fixed.  Our change logs are proof of this in that they regularly acknowledge bugs and show how they were fixed.

Stardock can only do its best at estimating when software will come out.  But software often runs late. It's a fact of life.  Arguably, the last beta of ObjectBar could have been slapped with a 2.0 and put out there. It's pretty stable. But we aren't quite yet satisfied with it.  We aren't going to put out software that we don't feel is ready to meet an arbitrary deadline.  Users should make their purchases based on what's available, not based on what they hope will be available.

c) We don't delete things you are using (certainly not in any general sense).  In case you havne't noticed, no one else is running into this problem you describe.  That doesn't make it not happening for you of course but it's obviously not a common problem.

And let me add a D:

Customers have a responsibility to clearly outline what problems they are having, what hardware they are using, what software they are using, and what version they are using. I've looked at your news group posts and IMO, they are very vague and more ranting and full of assumptions.

Customers also have a responsibility to try to help themselves -- read the documentation for instance.

Example, you wrote in a news group post:

* desktop X - wonderful idea.  i remember when it came out, i remember trying to use it, i remember the experience,but there was never enough documentation (when i looked) for me to be able to do anything with DX.

Where did you look? DesktopX has always had an immense amount of documentation, tutorials, etc.

https://www.stardock.com/products/desktopx/documentation/index.html

Another example you wrote:

right click - didn't this use to be part of OB?  of course, it requires i can find a desktop to right click on...  not doing much for me as a result.

There's a hot key in RightClick that brings up the menu at any time. 

The point being, IMO you have a pattern of not really trying to look very deeply to see if what you consider a problem is really a problem at all but rather a lack of trying to see if a solution is already built in.

Companies, as businesses, have to draw the line somewhere.  At some point, some users are too expensive to support.  You hav ea long list of problems, many of which are either specific to you or due to not choosing to look to resolve the issue yourself. 

That doesn't make your problems and complaints illegitimate. It just means that you and Stardock would be better off if you didn't purchase its software.

 

"the software should come with support, specifically bug reports should be acknowledged in some meaningful way, and bugs should be fixed"

I think all software companies try to do this to various extents. Are you seriously trying to argue that Stardock is less responsive than Adobe, Corel, Microsoft, or others? I have never had a bug report of mine acknowledged by any of those companies.

For example, I paid hundreds of dollars for Microsoft Office XP. When I right click on a file to attach it to an email, Outlook won't send it. Pressing the send button doesn't work. I've seen people on usenet report the same problem. No fix. It's been years.

At least with Stardock you actually do hear from them. They do put out regular updates. And they do fix a lot of things. And they give you a lot of value. Adobe is talking about CS3! CS2 just came out. More hundreds of dollars I'm supposed to pay and CS2 is full of bugs. You think Adobe sends email back to me on the status of my bugs?

You have to compare companies with other companies. You can't compare Stardock with some fantastical ideal company. You have to compare it to other companies selling products at a similar price range. Stardock's service IMHO far exceeds the service I've received by any software company.

OK, I think you just edited your comment Frogboy, but I am still a bit upset that you (in a polite way) suggest that everyone would be better off if feline would not buy Stardocks' products anymore.

I know your opinion about the customer-seller relationship and I largely agree with you there, but I really don't think feline (as a long-term customer and valued member of the community) belongs into that category. Not just was this thread very politely formulated but some of the points actually are spot on.

Unfortunately feline is not the only one who has ever complained about the level of customer support from Stardock, there are quite a few threads about that in the Support section. I can understand that it is impossible to iron-out every single bug specific to someones computer configuration, but "c'est le ton qui fait la musique". The Stardock comunicates to its customers matters a lot. Why not send an email (it can even be pre-prepared)out explaining that everything possible was done to recreate the bug and that the bug was acknowledged? Fact is that not everyone gets a reply when they write to customer support (except the automated "uninstall > reboot > reinstall"-answer) and this seems to upset people.

I personally had largely good experiences with Stardock customer support except that I once had to wait about two weeks for a reply. That didn't bother me since I knew that I would get help sooner or later, but someone who has newer had to deal with Stardock support before would surely feel that the support was lacking.

As to the point of OB2. Stardock should not assume that feline is the only person wondering about the delay in its release. I for my case have been wondering about that too. Stardock is normally very good in communicating with its customers and announcing new products. Why not make make an announcement listing the reasons for the delay and maybe set a new release date? People would then get the feeling that the development is still happening and that OB was not forgotten.

I guess what I was trying to say was; telling a frustrated customer (who is not a 'troll' or 'flamer') to not ever buy Stardock products again, was a bit harsh and uncalled for. Stardock should know that it is virtually impossible to satisfy each and every customer, but that (well formulated) criticism should always be taken seriously.

aufish - I understand what you're saying.  However, what is boils down to is that Feline wants $200 in service from a $50 program. That's not feasible.  Moreover, even with the support he has gotten over the years, he felt justified in claiming that we don't fix bugs or respond to users.

I am not mad at Feline. I am simply saying that on consumer products, there is a threshold where it doesn't make sense for customer and product to mix.  I feel this is one of those times. 

We take criticism very seriously and the proof of that comes in the form of regular product updates and fixes that occur on a pretty steady basis.  If a customer, any customer, feels that what we are doing amounts to essentially non-support at all, then we are at a fork in the road. 

I do not think there is anything Stardock can do to make Feline happy based on what he is saying. The best thing he can do, IMO, is not to buy products that I can almost certainly say will not meet his criteria.  I think John Hamp said it aptly -- Stardock has to be compared to real world companies, not some idealized one. 

Feline isn't just disatisifed with some particular element of one of our products, he's essentially saying that we don't support our stuff at all and the gulf in what we feel we're doing and what he feels we're doing is so vast that I don't think it's surmountable.  Perhaps Feline can clarify his views. I can only go by what he is saying in this (and his news group posts). 

- Request support when needed

I think that many of feline's bug reports were not merely support related.  I think that many times he found bugs, reproduced them, documented them, tested them, then submitted them because he loved the product and the community and felt that he was doing his bit to help improve and develop the product in the way that he could.  I think that is a big part of why he continues to care.  Anyone can walk away from a 'thing' they own.  It is hard to walk away from something and someone (the community here) that you have come to care deeply for.  It is probably even harder to realize that what you see as honest attempts to provide useful feedback that might eventually benefit the product and the community has come to be seen as mere annoyance.  The passion that feline presents his case with is a reflection of his care and concern for the product and for people here. 

Frogboy, to a large degree my logical side agrees with you, your points are fair and valid. this is why i am trying to find a sensible balance point between caring about these products, and making fair requests, and having fair expectations.

some of my facts are probably out of date, and i am hoping that the situation has improved in recent months. in fact i would like to hear that things are improving, and i would like to think that clearly reported bugs (i can and have reported bugs in incredible detail) can at least be logged into some form of "things to fix" list. do you see it as a reasonable request to hear back "the bug has been confirmed, it is in the list as number X", or "we cannot confirm the bug"?

i also know of lots of companies that sell software and offer *terrible* support, strangely enough i do not recommend them to anyone.

to site specific examples, two things that i *hope* are long since fixed:

* updates to stardock central *used to* delete trayserver.exe, this has been confirmed by various people in the object bar news groups and via email from stardock. hopefully this stopped happening somewhere along the line

* installing a WB beta upgrade on top of an existing WB release install would delete all WB skins that were bundled with the WB release, but which were not bundled with the WB beta. i emailed in the WB upgrade logs showing this in action, and it was confirmed as a bug in an email from stardock. again hopefully this stopped happening somewhere along the line.

a current problem with keyboard launchpad (reporting as 1.00.001) the action "open my computer" is listed in the config screen as "WinKey + '", which is fine, except for the minor point that the actual keyboard shortcut is "WinKey + #". a minor point, until you forget one of your more obscure keyboard shortcuts and have to look it up. this is likely to effect all international customers - i am in England and have a language and keyboard layout for England.

there was a much more obscure problem with KLP if you write your own KLP plugins (i did, as part of an effort to give something back) and they take time to execute. the problem happened when getting KLP to dial my old 56k modem, and also to run my firewall. understandably i wanted these to happen in a given order, but due to the "lets sort the interface" in KLP i had to get feedback from a highly frustrated Jeff to find out what was going on. here i will admit that this is the sort of problem you don't want to hear about, but it drove me up the wall!


if you want *very* detailed bug reports, confirmed on two or more different machines, with screen shots, and key press by key press details of what to do then i am there for you, i have done this, on many occasions. however when they seem to drop into a black hole, and release after release of the program still has the problem is it any wonder that i get fed up?

i am aware that i have stopped being totally fair, balanced and rational in my perspective. but when i head butt "it doesn't work properly" bugs in OD software day in and day out, bugs that i can and do report in mind numbing detail, can you see why my passion and interest gets a bit dulled?

if you really feel that my perspective is totally unreasonable then perhaps you are right. i am certainly *not* saying i am without fault here. but at the same time Stardock is a company that for years i held up as having legendary support!

I thought I would make a little aside, here, because I think it helps to understand where feline is coming from. 

I know how detailed his bug reports are.  I participated in some of his research to see if the bug would replicate on different machines.  Some others of us did too and we did get a good feel from doing something that seemed like it would help in development.  I know from talking with him that he believed that what he was doing was as much as a contribution as it was for support (because he surely could do some of these fixes on his own).  That was not what it was about.  He was working with a beta product and he was making detailed bug reports with complete documentation because he believed that that is what you do with beta products.  You test them, you break them, you report them, this develops them.

He does this for other programs too.  And you know what?  Out of the blue one day he got an email from one of them.  They told him that they valued his contributions and they wanted to pay him for working with them.  And now he does work for them part time.   But he would still have been there giving reports on the program even if that never happened because he believed that the program was a good one and that the people who provided the program were good people and because that is what some people do when they are using beta.  They provide feedback.

I'm sorry but if Feline wanted to be constructive he would have taken a completely different track with this, GoodMorphing.

The title of the thread is "Stardock got ill". Maybe you should use your vast empathic powers to understand why Brad and others might find that insulting.

As soon as I read the title and a few lines in where Feline makes it sound like Stardock doesn't acknowledge bugs I would have reacted much the same as Brad and others. If you really want problems resolved you don't start out by insulting the people who make the product.

 

Maybe you should use your vast empathic powers to understand why Brad and others might find that insulting.

Thats fine, Emily.  I am not even pretending I have vast any kind of powers.  I do know the people involved and some of the history.  I don't think that he meant to be instulting and I don't think many of the people here did take it as an insult.  This is and has been consistent with his style of writing since very near the beginning of the community. 

And it has kind of been my style to interject my interpretation every now and then.  I try not to be offensive.  Brad strikes me as the kind of individual that appreciates knowing what people think and feel.  He also seems pretty strong.  I've always thought that he appreciated a good discussion.

edited to include the correct quote.

Emily...I think 'vast empathic powers' is hypocritical in a comment allegedly concerned about 'insults'.

It'd be appreciated if people would choose their words a wee bit more carefully and not disparage the efforts of those who volunteer their time to look after this site and its community.....

I purchased WB3.1 in January of 2002, for $19.95. I was so impressed with the product and the constant stream of updates and improvements that I purchased OD a couple months later. Since that time I have downloaded quite a few BETAs, bug fixes, and have actually reported a few bugs myself.

My experience with Stardock is the complete opposite of what's being reported here. Case in point, I had a Sony laptop that always showed corrupted graphics in the start menu. I used the forum, the news group and eventually emailed support with the problem when I reached "total frustration". What I found out was that the computer (display driver) was at fault and not the program or the installation or lack of support. The Sony Co. has their own "branded" driver for that particular card and they don't keep up as well as ATI. The ATI driver for the rest of the world had already addressed the issue and Sony was NOT interested in making a fix for that "limited" a problem. So is Stardock responsible for fixing their program to address an issue which ATI has fixed but which a specific run of Sony laptops hasn't? I didn't think so at the time and I don't think so now. I bought a computer with a card that works and drivers direct from ATI.

I own an engineering business and have 12 systems running. I have five licensed versions of AutoCAD. I've owned at least one since 1988. Each one costs $3,200 (not including specialty add-ons). Generally they put out one or two bug fixes with each release, around every twelve months. When I call AutoCAD with a problem they have me talk to a tech support guy. Usually this tech support guy has about one or two years experience and a couple hours training before being shoved in front of the phone. I find it hard to get help from someone who doesn't know the program as well as I do. If I asked to speak to a developer, do you honestly believe I'd be able to? If I leave a message in their forum do you think the CO would even care, much less answer in person. Get a grip. If you are disappointed with the service you get here.....be prepared for a disappointing life.

The BETA version of any release should be accepted for what it is "Not Ready For Prime Time". Software such as Enhanced Dialog is only offered as a BETA so that those WILLING can test it out and help with the development by reporting those bugs. I use RightClick constantly and have since it first came out even though it only recently went beyond BETA. Each time I reported a bug on the forum I got a response from the developer. That's not to say I still don't have a "Wish List" for some of the Stardock products I use, but for $50US you can count me as one very satisfied customer.

GoodMorphing, add me to the list of people who found Feline's words insulting. The title of the thread is insulting. The claims are insulting. The use of "*sarcasm mode*" is insulting.

What about those of us who I bet are the majority who don't find Object Desktop to be buggy? I don't accept his premise and generalizations.

* installing a WB beta upgrade

feline,

I must have taken a wrong turn here somewhere, because I did not think we were talking about beta versions.

In the case of beta versions, customers would not be "entitled" to support in any form. Reporting bugs would be the norm for users who are interested in taking a look at the software and helping in it's development.

I would in no way expect a verification communication of a bug I had reported in a beta version, and would instead think that my report may or may not have been helpful in the development of said product.

Sorry if I have misunderstood the premise of this discussion.