Now now Wayward-Fish, let's not persecute Iconoclast for his beleifs now shall we? That would go against your religion now wouldn't it?

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

Exactly what I meant, Iconoclast.
Also, since you deleted Wayward-Fish's post, I wouldn't mind if you deleted mine either since it quotes the parts of Wayward-Fish's post you were trying to delete.

Now, not to get off topic, I have a question I'd like answered(intelligently and in a respectful manner please).
Why did God make it possible to be/do evil? Why did that choice have to be included in the package of Free Will? Why was a paradigm created where there is good along with evil/ right and wrong? Earlier in the post it was stated that it was better to be loved by choice rather than force, but if "force" wasn't created, we wouldn't know the difference, and God wouldn't have to(He wouldn't have any forms of love to compare to). Why not have a realm where there is right/good and X choice that had no consequence or "bad" side to it and that only God knows what it could be? But this good/evil and right/wrong law didn't start with humans either. Satan, one of God's own angels, defied Him and was banished to Hell forever. An angel... doing such a thing, God making it possible, and creating punishment.

Again, I'm not trying to bash God or Christians, I just simply don't understand it. If anyone can answer without using one of those all-purpose answers that just don't do it for me,(i.e. "He did it out of his infinite love for us") please do. I am also well aware the a good chunk of my questions could be answered only by God, but please do your best.

Axis, maybe I shouldn't have deleted that post, because every post since then references that one. You don't want me to delete your most recent one, do you? Maybe I won't blacklist him. Putting him in his place is fun.

Why did God make it possible to be/do evil? Why did that choice have to be included in the package of Free Will? Why was a paradigm created where there is good along with evil/ right and wrong? Earlier in the post it was stated that it was better to be loved by choice rather than force, but if "force" wasn't created, we wouldn't know the difference, and God wouldn't have to(He wouldn't have any forms of love to compare to). Why not have a realm where there is right/good and X choice that had no consequence or "bad" side to it and that only God knows what it could be? But this good/evil and right/wrong law didn't start with humans either. Satan, one of God's own angels, defied Him and was banished to Hell forever. An angel... doing such a thing, God making it possible, and creating punishment.

I suppose our will wouldn't be completely free if we weren't able to do evil. I've always said you can't have one without the other. They balance each other. Have you read Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth? He says people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct.

Well, it's not my comment board, so you can do as you please. I only mentioned you deleting my post with Wayward-Fish's quotes to express that it was alright with me, but I suppose leaving the post there would make sense. I don't know what backlisting is in relation to forums. I'm obviously new to this (*"Anonymous User" next to name*), but I don't like him much, and I'd punish him in some way on this forum if I had a comment board and he come on it warping the point of it.

"I suppose our will wouldn't be completely free if we weren't able to do evil. I've always said you can't have one without the other. They balance each other. Have you read Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth? He says people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct."

Well my whole point was basically if you're God and you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute?
I haven't read that book, but it sounds interesting. Is the whole thing based around something similar to the idea that "people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct", or is that just one small part of it?

I haven't read that book, but it sounds interesting. Is the whole thing based around something similar to the idea that "people and animals are experiments of God's in Morals and Conduct", or is that just one small part of it?

There are several other sections that don't have anything to do with religion. The letters are from Satan after he has arrived on Earth. He observes and writes letters to angels Gabriel and Michael. "Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm....He believes he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them....He sits on his throne, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempetuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction.....as quaint and naive a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it."

Then there are "Papers of the Adam Family." Adam and Eve's Journal. God told them not to eat the fruit of a certain tree, or they would die. But they had never seen an example of death, so they didn't know what it meant.

my whole point was basically if you're God and you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute?

as i've mentioned elsewhere, i've a project in development--already greenlighted but i'm not at liberty to divulge many of the contractual details--dealing with some of the issues yall have been discussing here. its working title is 'The Beginning Before In The Beginning: A Genesis Prequel'. this unprecendented docu-drama draws heavily on exclusive interviews i conducted during three years of unrestricted access to god...as well as lots of archival resources he turned over to me. here's just a very tiny taste of what's in store for you once it's released: hyenas weren't part of the plan and exist now only as a bleak reminder of what can happen if you don't make reservations when doing lunch at anna's on pico and wind up spending 37 minutes waiting in the bar for a table.

you have a bowl of "pure non-existance" and the first thing you add is a good thing, why adulterate it by throwing in something bad? Why have a bowl of perfect cake mix and throw poison in at the last minute

excellent question. the only sensible answer is: this is nothing a truly superior being would do.

hyenas weren't part of the plan and exist now only as a bleak reminder of what can happen if you don't make reservations when doing lunch at anna's on pico and wind up spending 37 minutes waiting in the bar for a table.

Could you put that into terms that those of us who don't live in L.A. can understand?

Pico and Sepulveda
Pico and Sepulveda
Doheny, Cohuanga (sp?), LaBrea Tar Pits
Lahoya, Sequoia, LaBrea Tar Pits

I think reading "A Prequel to Genesis" has alot of potential to be interesting, but I would have difficulty understanding it if most of it is written in odd metaphors like that as well.

Could you put that into terms that those of us who don't live in L.A. can understand? Pico and Sepulveda Pico and Sepulveda Doheny, Cohuanga (sp?), LaBrea Tar Pits Lahoya, Sequoia, LaBrea Tar Pits

sorry. the place is really incidental (altho it's notta bad place to take a working lunch) to the consequence of a combination of bad planning, an extra carafe of wine and impatience (if notta bad attitude).

ya got em all right except for cahuenga & la jolla. anna's isn't that far from the celebrated intersection btw.

but I would have difficulty understanding it if most of it is written in odd metaphors like that as well.

nobody reads film scripts. producer: when he or she gets done tellin you whatta work of genius it is, they ask you to tell em what it's about. director: no sense inhibiting creativity. actors: see director...why bother?

Who cares,
That is the person I am replying to here:
"You ever notice how people are commenting here as if they have first hand knowledge. These people are so convinced they are right they are willing to try to influence someone else to thier belief. Are you willing to take responsibility for that and the possible consequences. How far are you willing to go in this endeavor. Are you sure you are right or is this your interpretation. Becareful that you don't hurt yourself on your own commandments, I mean views......... Better make sure your house is in order or stop preaching......"

Are you talking about me 'trying to influence others" or about the others who are trying to influence us. Either way...Iconoclast has his own belief...and I have mine...so which one of us are you talking about, because you could twist it either way...we are both defending our own stance. Why would I so staunchly defend something if I didnt believe in it 100%? Define interpretation...you could also twist that so it goes for either iconoclast or myself. We both interpret things or own way...or are you just annoyed at the way I interpret things because I believ ein God and you dont? My commandments...are not my views...I follow the commandments. my viewpoint is the Christian faith and its teachings. So since you are on here telling me what to do, it means your house is in order? Are you sure you are right...or just your interpretation?

Iconoclast...
" If I ask God for forgiveness, how will I know he forgave me? Because a little voice in my head says so? That's my conscience. Or maybe just wishful thinking. Besides, if God is all-loving and all-forgiving, why should I even have to ask?"

Because, he said. Obvioulsy if you just have heartidly say God forgive me and dont really mean it...he wont. You have to want it. Its not a voice...its his spoken word in the Bible that says it. You should ask because you need to ask God for forgiveness...not just because he is God. God is God..so what...is he going to give you a new caddy because you put in a buck in the tithe plate? No...he only gives you what you need and ask for. Why should he give you forgiveness if you cant even ask for it from him. He wont give, unless you ask.

"excellent question. the only sensible answer is: this is nothing a truly superior being would do."

One of those "all purpose" answers I said I was trying to avoid, but I do understand what a tough question it is to answer.

#2: God gave man Free Will.

I do not want free will. Therefore, by god forcing it on me, my will is not free. I do not want to be here. Therefore, by being forced to be here, my will is not free. You cannot have an after-the-fact free will. A truly free will must be always free or it never really was. The only answer to this dogma is that I actually DID choose to be here, AND I chose to not know that I chose to be here when I got here. But Ockhams Razor(the principle, not the blogger) laughs at that one. That is NOT the simple answer.

Why do people fight logic instead of trying to come up with an explanation that makes sense? It IS possible to come up with an interpretation of human/cosmological/religious/whatever history that doesn't make God out to be this money-grubbing, insecure, death-dealing maniac, and it always fascinates me that so many Christians prefer things that way. I guess it's a more human way of being, and thus more familiar/tangible. Is it just easier to follow the book, guys? Just close your eyes and blindly run forward waving the word of god whenever someone makes a good point? Don't you ever wonder what exactly is the mechanism by which the son of god's death unlocked some door somewhere for souls to go through? Or do you just shut your eyes and not think about it?

That is why it is called faith. One cannot prove or disprove the existance. You can only go so far with logic, before you either aceept he does not exist, or make the 'leap of faith'.

If there IS this God the Christians claim exists, surely the greatest sin against him is starting to have faith WAY before thinking has failed. And here's a measure. If you can't get through the first page of Finnegan's Wake, your brain still needs some exercise before you give up. Some of you stop thinking about it before you've even tried to start. THAT is sinful to me.

Ike makes some very simple good points. If I did not come to my life through a volitional act, it is not possible that anything about me is free - especially not my will. Is that not elegant in its simplicity? It's like the second you see it you shut your mind down and go to the book for fear of thinking. If you think I DID come to my own life through my own volition, then talk about how that set of universal functions operates. The Christian argument always boils down to "The Book says so." No offense, but that's really weak. Make it make sense or admit that it just doesn't! I'd have far more respect and would be far more inclined to listen to the Christians if they said something on the order of "You know what...you're right. None of this makes a lick of logical sense at all. I just believe it anyway." At least I'd feel you were being honest with yourselves then.

Cmon folks...there's a way here that makes sense. What is it? THINK!

I'd have far more respect and would be far more inclined to listen to the Christians if they said something on the order of "You know what...you're right. None of this makes a lick of logical sense at all. I just believe it anyway."

Ministers, priests, etc. can't do that, or they would soon be out of a job.

Good deeds are worth far more than false praise

Which is why I can't be Christian. I can't 'Love the Lord your God with all (my) heart'. It's not for lack of trying either, I've tried and tried: I even immersed myself in a church for a few years and taught Sunday school...but I felt like a hypocrite doing it and quit.

Now I'm relatively a happy Taoist/Buddhist. I believe that there is something bigger than all of us at work, but I don't believe that it's the Christian version of an all-powerful God. (besides, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he put a stop to some of the horrors that are going on? let me guess...'free will', right? That makes no sense to me)
I do think that Christianity, when you take away the dogma, has some really good lessons on how to live your life and act towards your neighbor. In the words of the immortal Zoomba, they can be summed up in one sentence: 'Don't be a dick'.

Oh, and sorry I'm so late to the party (and my comments were probably way off-topic by now, so I apologize for that too...)

I do think that Christianity, when you take away the dogma, has some really good lessons on how to live your life and act towards your neighbor.

Do what you wanna
Do what you will.
Just don't mess up
Your neighbor's thrill. - Frank Zappa

Oh, and sorry I'm so late to the party (and my comments were probably way off-topic by now, so I apologize for that too...)

np