"Imagine your wife chooses not to love you. so you punish her for making that choice. what kinda love is that?"I was comparing God to man, not man to man

I think kingbee was using a metaphor.

"Isn't religion supposed to make us feel warm and fuzzy instead of scaring us?"No. If it offends you, makes you realize you are wrong, at fault and need to change, and that you can't do it on your own...then you know it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Religion is supposed to comfort people.

Ziggy, I find you even stupider and more annoying than your sexless girlfriend. And that's saying a lot.

Buy a fucking clue, will ya?

Iconoclast, was Deism the belief you were looking for?

de·ism(dzm, d-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

-dictionary.com

It might be, Axis. Thanks. My dictionary defines it as "a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion based on human reason rather than revelation, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe."

Myrr,
stupider? Id like to know where you are coming from...didnt think I was posting anything directly against what you were saying...sure as heck didnt mean to pinch a nerve in your ass. Sorry there buddy....have a cup of hot chocolate...with marshmallows!

Iconoclast,
Kingbee was, I think, trying to compare people who dont love God, to wives who dont love their husbands. Thats how I interpreted it.
Religion isnt supposed to comfort people. Lots of people say Christianity is a crutch because it is for weak minded people who are strangling for answers and some proof there is a God. Since I opened my eyes and turned my life around, I have a new peace and feel stronger in many different aspects of my life. People cant understand and then jump on the bandwagon saying that 'its doing its job...its a comfort to those people' Well...in a sense...I find comfort...but thats not because I am a Christian...its because I follow Christ. People also cant understand that and yep...they will flame me because of that. But I dont care...I know what I have in my heart and what I follow is true. Those who constantly try to prove God doesnt exist are the ones strangling for answers.

compare people who dont love God, to wives who dont love their husbands

i was actually wondering how you resolve the contradiction you presented. when you give someone the option of choosing or not choosing something, you gotta be prepared to live with the results of that choice. if the choice is do it or else, there's no volition involved.

But you also didnt die for her so that she could live forever. God did

let's say we both agreed that to be the case. why would god have to die to do anything. he could as easily just forgiven and forgotten the events in the garden of eden.

For those that can see what God did, love is a side affect of realizing that he died for all, so that ALL could enter heaven. But only those who see this, and ask for forgiveness of their sins are the ones who will enter.

love is a side effect? and you really mean all who were alive during the time jesus was on earth and those who were born afterwards in those geographic areas where it was possible to learn about his death. my guess is far, far fewer than half of 'all' whove ever been born would meet those criteria.

Since I opened my eyes and turned my life around, I have a new peace and feel stronger in many different aspects of my life.

Ignorance is bliss.

worship is when you really sit down and spend time with him, listening to what he has to say

You hear voices in your head? But seriously, it's just your conscience.

Those who constantly try to prove God doesnt exist are the ones strangling for answers.

You have it backwards. Since there is no prove God exists, those who don't believe challenge believers to prove he DOES exist.

You have it backwards. Since there is no prove God exists, those who don't believe challenge believers to prove he DOES exist.

That is why it is called faith.  One cannot prove or disprove the existance.  You can only go so far with logic, before you either aceept he does not exist, or make the 'leap of faith'.

"Once you've convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky, you can convince them of anything." - George Carlin Anyway, this article isn't about whether or not I believe God exists. I've already stated that I believe he at least used to exist. It's those of you who are arguing that twisted it.

The free will means you don't have to be manipulated to follow and love God. You pay for it, but you're not being forced to

Some choice.

"if the choice is do it or else, there's no volition involved"
its not a choice of do it or else...its a this is the right choice...this is the wrong choice thing. You cant choose not to choose...because that is also a choice.

"he could as easily just forgiven and forgotten the events in the garden of eden"
Not really...this was before he gave the option of asking for forgivness. At this time...you had to listen to what he told you. He said they could do anything, but do not touch the tree. They did. They didnt even ask for forgiveness, and tried to hide from God because they knew what they did was wrong and there was, at that time, no punishment for not following God. These people went away from God and paid the price.

"Ignorance is bliss"
I bet you say that every time you look in the mirror, dontcha? Im ignorant because my life has turned around and Im a much better person because of the things that have changed me?

"You hear voices in your head? But seriously, it's just your conscience"
No I dont, and no its not......*sigh...ignorance is bliss for some people*

Did I say I heard voices? No...nice way of twisting what i said though to fit your style of attempts to prove God doesnt exist.

"Those who constantly try to prove God doesnt exist are the ones strangling for answers."
"You have it backwards. Since there is no prove God exists, those who don't believe challenge believers to prove he DOES exist."
Actually, No I dont have it backwards. I know he exists because of what is evident in my life and from what I see. You think he doesnt exist because of what you dont see.

"Some Choice"
So...youd rather not have the ability to choose?
or..
You just think its a bad thing because you get punished for not following God.
or...
you think it sucks that someone is telling you that you have faults and arent perfect and you need to ask for forgiveness.
which one is it?

You just think its a bad thing because you get punished for not following God

That one.

you think it sucks that someone is telling you that you have faults and arent perfect and you need to ask for forgiveness

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Why should anyone have to ask God's forgiveness for not being perfect?
WE'RE HUMAN! GOD MADE US THIS WAY! He should ask our forgiveness for such an asinine law.

If you didn't make a bad choice, you wouldn't need to be forgiven. It really is quite simple and expecting anything from God is asinine.

Actually, God did say you should not test him as well.

But I agree with Helix. You are not asking for forgiveness for being human and imperfect, you are asking for forgiveness for your mistakes. and it is as much asking God as it is forgiving yourself.

It is all psychological.

You are not asking for forgiveness for being human and imperfect, you are asking for forgiveness for your mistakes.

We make mistakes because we're human and imperfect. In the Bible, did God not ask someone's forgiveness and he promised not do it (whatever it was) again? He gave us free will. He made us imperfect. For him to punish us because we are what he made us is asinine.The choices we make shouldn't have anything to do with it.

I still think faith is like love, you can't force either or experience it just because you want to. I think faith and love are things that come from within. I would love to believe in Christianity (BTW, you can believe in God without being Christian) but I just don't feel it. There isn't a meld of heart and mind that results in faith like I suspect a lot of people who are on here testifying have.

There is no proof. Christians can quote the bible with every last breath they have and still not convince a person if that person simply hasn't "seen the light" and felt the unconditional love that is religious faith. I'm still open but it hasn't happened for me. I here ya Iconoclast.

you can't force either or experience it just because you want to

Or because someone else wants you to.
Thanks, Jill.

Link

I've never thought of the bible as a concrete source of proof anyway. In my opinion, it is a resource God made to set his ground rules for man. So for all people who say "God doesn't exist/Genesis could have never happened because the theory of evolution contradicts with the possibility of there being an Adam and Eve," yeah, you're probably right; about the Adam and Eve part. Most of Genesis probably never happened. It was probably just s story written by whoever (it is not clear who wrote Genesis, but it is generally accepted that the Holy Spirit was the one who "wrote" it) to get man, in basic terms, to understand what God has given to man and what God wants of man. This is probably true for alot of other books of the Bible as well, but don't get me wrong, I believe there's a God. I'm just a sort of Agnostic/Deist who does not worship God for (probably) alot of the same reasons Iconoclast doesn't.

There are some scary people out there (Ziggystyles and Dr). You ever notice how people are commenting here as if they have first hand knowledge. These people are so convinced they are right they are willing to try to influence someone else to thier belief. Are you willing to take responsibility for that and the possible consequences. How far are you willing to go in this endeavor. Are you sure you are right or is this your interpretation. Becareful that you don't hurt yourself on your own commandments, I mean views......... Better make sure your house is in order or stop preaching......

We make mistakes because we're human and imperfect. In the Bible, did God not ask someone's forgiveness and he promised not do it (whatever it was) again? He gave us free will. He made us imperfect. For him to punish us because we are what he made us is asinine.The choices we make shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Not being perfect is forgetting to set the alarm and getting up late.  You need to ask for no forgiveness for that.  But making a mistake is not robbing a bank.  That is wrong, and you knew it before you did it.  That is what you are asking forgiveness for. Not being human, but making wrong decisions.  Free Will, remember?

There are some scary people out there (Ziggystyles and Dr). You ever notice how people are commenting here as if they have first hand knowledge. These people are so convinced they are right they are willing to try to influence someone else to thier belief.

I dont beleive I was preaching.  I was explaining.  I dont want Icon to convert because of what I believe.  If he is to undergo a leap of faith, it should be of his own making and decision, no one else's.

If you can show me where I am preaching or trying to convert him, quote it and show me.  But you cant.  Can you not even understand a rational and sane debate without thinking that everyone is a Jerry Falwell?  You truly are afraid of your own non-beliefs.  And for that, I offer no arguments, just pity and sympathy that one day you will be strong enough in your own beliefs, whatever they are, that they can stand on their own and not be threatened by someone talking about their beliefs.

Not being perfect is forgetting to set the alarm and getting up late. You need to ask for no forgiveness for that. But making a mistake is not robbing a bank. That is wrong, and you knew it before you did it. That is what you are asking forgiveness for. Not being human, but making wrong decisions. Free Will, remember?

If I rob a bank, I think there are some people whose forgiveness I should ask for. If I ask God for forgiveness, how will I know he forgave me? Because a little voice in my head says so? That's my conscience. Or maybe just wishful thinking. Besides, if God is all-loving and all-forgiving, why should I even have to ask?

I admit you aren't as bad as Zigg here but here is 1 quote Dr:

"3: So when catastrophe hits, we must do what is best for ourselves and our brothers. If he were to interfere, then we would be just puppets on a string (much like the angels). Man, according to the JCI God, is alone amoung the heirachy in being able to do good as an act of free will, and bad, for the same reason.

In the end, we are being tested. We may be found wanting, but then it is Man's decision in that regard, not God's.

Your not worshipping him is just another nail in the coffin of man. But there are many reasons that man will be saved and one of the greatest just died this past week. Each man and woman has the capacity for good and evil within themselves. The end result is how many choose each."

This is not preaching??????????????? This is a big problem with the whole scenario. Why not say nothing if you are not absolutely certainly willing to commint somenone elses life to your cause. Think about it. Would you agree to raise a child so light hardly. I admit that most be do not think this way but they should. And, I know what I believe, I am unwilling to state my belief in the unlikely manner it will have influence someone. You speak here as if God told you this. In reality a man wrote this down somewhere and you are passing it on.

"Iconoclast (a person who attacks establishment for the hell of it I'm sure) is not just half an ass, but a whole one."
"you sawed-off- runt, little chicken-shit. "

Now now Wayward-Fish, let's not persecute Iconoclast for his beleifs now shall we? That would go against your religion now wouldn't it?
Love your enemies, need I say more?

I deleted wayward-fish's post for name-calling. And I am going to blacklist him. Nice language for a Christian. Get down on your knees and beg forgiveness. You are a perfect example of why myself and many other people turn their backs on religion, and I'm pretty sure that every Christian who has been posting to this article is sorry that they are associated with you.