Anti-Time

from WinCustomize Forums
OK, hello everyone, it's me again. Back with more brain-aching theories. I've not necessarily moved from my favourite topic on Dimensions, however I do have the persistant urge to explore postulations involving paradoxical occurances. Right, so, last time my discussion was on the Fourth Dimension. I just want to thank all those super-intelligent guys (including Adam) who posted their thoughts even though some of them were just way to confusing and technical for me to interpret being an average that I am. In the end, I concluded that the fourth dimension is basically everywhere but we can only see one slice of it. They cannot see us because one slice of their space isn't visible to them as it has zero value of on the upsilon/delta axis (the 4th axis) - basically? a waste of time. but a time worth while. uhh.... that wasn't a contradiction, just uhh.... an oxymoron - an enjoyable one.

So, my next, most recent and most confounding theory is on Anti-Time (I'm sure most people that see this being familiar will have seen the Star Trek episode on it).

Ok. Since no one else WE (me and Adam) know has a name for it, we've decided to brand it the "Negentropy theory" thanks to Keely for the negentropy part.

Me and Adam were talking about how one could interact with a member of Anti-Time. Note that this is perspective to someone in our time as we could also be subject to Anti-time from ..anti-time's POV.

Anyway. We imagined that someone from Anti-Time could someohow cross into our time along with his own time field. So his journey here would be to discover and explore how his opposition in time would function. When his journey begins, it actually ends. We are positive time and they are negative time (in terms of relativity). We will begin with his perspective of the journey. As soon as he enters (imagining this as how The Terminator enters hehe) he will see everyone around him notice his appearance straight away, then looking away (because obviously everything is in reverse to him) then everyday life continues backwards. We'll give him a name, let's call him Sydd.

Sydd's main objective in our time frame is to interact with scientists in order for them to learn about him and vice versa. It was about this time that we realised that there was a slight paradox in this, in that the whole idea would have to be staged to allow Sydd to be freed: As the time frame Sydd's in is in reverse, the beginning of his journey is the point at which he is freed in positive time (for the sake of explanation, Sydd's time will be referred to as negative time, as he is in the minority). If it is not agreed that he will be freed and released in terms of positive time, then there's no way that he could arrive in the first place imagine from the POV of someone in positive time viewing Sydd as he is about to enter (from his POV). Someone could be watching him leave (to his view, he has arrived), but if he were never freed and allowed to return home, then there's no way he could leave (in reverse - i.e. arrive) he could never come. After that pretty complicated attempt at insuring it was fully explained, we can now continue.

I first got this idea when I was working at a supermarket and I was in the stockroom area and I was loading up some excess products, when I saw these boxes on the top og this really high shelf that looked pretty unsafe. While I was looking I thought about the fact that it could crush some guy to his demise. For some reason, I saw it happen in normal time then in reverse. The first thing I'd see would be his death, then the boxes "falling" back up, the guy standing up and walking backwards out of the room. I then tried to think of a way to warn him by giving him a note and such saying "Don't walk into the boxes." Then I just imagined how the rest would follow.

After talking it over with Adam we came up with an example of a roleplay, if you will, of stopping this guy from getting killed by the boxes. After this first example has been explained, other examples should be apparent in why they don't work.

Sydd's POV
A man laying dead under some boxes comes back to life as the boxes spring up onto shelves. The man stands up and walks off backwards. Sydd decides to make a note and give it to the man (they both use the same language) to tell him to avoid the boxes. He hands it to the man after he has walked off backwards and moves his hand to his side, walking off (backwards for ease of explanation).

Man's POV
(Before the BOX incident) Sydd walks up to him and hands him the note in reverse (imagine the action Sydd did in reverse). This means that Sydd has taken a note which was already there. To possibly counteract this, Sydd (assuming he knows of the paradox) could try to do his action in reverse, i.e. take the note from the man so that when it's reversed when it goes to the man's POV, the note is given to him. But this only results in Sydd taking a note that the man already had, thus the man must already know of the future and what awaits him, should he go to the boxes.

You could try and resolve this problem by saying Sydd handed him the note at an earlier time, when the man didn't know about it (e.g. put it in his pocket), so that he can later take it off him. This only creates a further problem, because by taking it off him, in reverse he is giving it to him (from the man's POV). But that's only assuming that that note handover (the earlier one) is possible: in reverse he's still taken a note that must already be there etc.

So, by giving someone a note, Sydd has just like, collapsed the universe or something by creating an infinite paradox. Here's an example of the kind of thing. I came up while I was asking what other examples we came up with before, so here's the conversation as it JUST happened:


Matt: So basically, Adam, a guy gets shot yeah?

Adam: Yeah?

Matt: So then you take the gun off him.

Adam: lol, but in reverse you're then giving him the gun.

Matt: Okay, well, say it's on a table, you pick it up off the table before he does.

Adam: Yeah, but then you've just put the gun down in reverse and where did the gun come from? Did you have it already? lol, you've just assured his death, on either occasion.

Basically, all of this is practically impossible because of the fact that you cannot send a message to the opposite time-frame to ensure that Sydd is freed (as previously said). This is because of the fact that when he gets sent, he is actually taking the message back.

So to take action in positive time, we would see the eventuality of the consequences of that action. From Negative time's POV this would obviously be the other way around, in that a person's actions in positive time would happen 'after' the consequences of his action. interacting with someone in the opposite time-frame would be impossible since interacting will cause serious paradoxical problems. This is because the 'consequences' of interacting (if it WAS possible to interact) would take place FIRST to the opposite time-frame, meaning that it must have been destined, hence, Fate 'does' exist (theoretically) and there is no such thing as freedom (theoretically) in that everything is in reverse to the opposition.

What are your thoughts on this? sorry for taking so long to type it it's just that it's very hard to explain.

Matt and Adam.
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Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
well... im a bit confuzed here
but, sydd wouldnt even be able to visit earth, because that would mean he would have had to have left earth before he even came here, a paradox in itself...



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Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
and this also brings up a question about fate: is our future already defined? in that case, in a negative pov, it would be like watching a tape on rewind, but since it's already there and everything has already happened, noone would be able to do anything to change what would happen in the future. The same goes for this guy in antitime, as he is also a part of this timeline, even though he is going thourgh it backwards, everything has still already been predefined.



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Elemental: Reforged
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
They did an episode of Sliders about this subject I think.

Times' Arrow Earth aka As Time Goes By

The most remarkable thing about this Earth is that time here seems to flow backwards. Moment by moment, everything seems to be fine, but when a "discontinuity" in time occurs, visitors to this world will find themselves moved to a point in the past. The natives of this Earth do not perceive time to be moving backwards at all from their point of view the Sliders have knowledge of the future and no memory of past events.

The Sliders changed this Earth's future by preventing the murder of a police officer (Daelin again) who had already been killed when they arrived on this Earth. (Isn't temporal mechanics fun?) Playing with this world's time line seems to have had a adverse effect which Arturo describes as "ripping the fabric of time." The Sliders slid out of this world before seeing what damage, if any, was caused by their actions.

http://www.brillig.com/sliders/episodes/23.html
Earth Prime Sliders Site
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
ah, cool. Alright. So, time can be changed. But here's where it get's weird. I read this book once by Ray Bradbury called "A sound of Thunder" which describes how a tourist went into the past to hunt dinosaurs that were going to be killed anyway by forces of nature. He accidentally steps on some butterfly or something which then chain reacts into an alternate future where everything, language in particular, has been changed. Now, I figured that if I were to do the same, that i'd then come back to see my world changed. But I don't think that my world changed at all, i just shifted my existance into an alternate timeline. When I left my world to go into the past, if that world really was destroyed due to my actions, then everyone in that world that witnessed me leave would suddenly be erased from existance, however if that happened then i wouldn't have been born therefore i couldn't have gone into the past to cause this and we fall into a paradox that destroys the universe. So that can't happen. We're basically trying to postulate things that will NOT upset the fabric of the universe, let us try and move away from paradoxes.

ANYWAY. my point is that if someone changed something in the timeline, the timeline wouldn't move, 'he' would move - to an alternate timeline.

Alright so you have this guy yeah? who's standing in the street looking at the clouds for 10 seconds. Bearing in mind there is a gun on the sidewalk that he is destined to see in 10 seconds time. So let's just play the movie.

10 seconds later he sees the gun, walks up to it, gets hold of it, and shoots some woman for his own pleasure (he's notorious). So, then we come into play from the anti-time. We see this in reverse so the first thing that WE see is the death occuring. Even if we see past this, the woman will still be dead, she'd just have been dead for a while. So no matter how far you try and go back, it's simply furthering past her death. So the death happens, then the bullet comes out of her back into the gun, he then puts the gun down, walks away from it, then look up at the clouds for 10 seconds. Just before he look up at the clouds, we intercept to remove the gun from the pavement. (remember that we are assuming that we will not fall into a paradox here, so that if we remove the gun, therefore removing the fact that he kills her, hence removing the knowledge of why we would then WANT to remove it. - that wouldn't happen, remember that that is a paradox, and that if this would happen, you would still exist but you will have just shifted into an alternate timeline).

So you've removed the gun - success. BUT...

: So we are now looking up at the clouds, then we have just placed the gun down by taking it from our pov, but obviously we haven't changed much there now have we?

But where has the gun come from is what i am concerned about? if i have PLACED it there by TAKING it, that PROVES that i have taken the gun from one timeline, to another. because i have provided the gun, but where did 'i' get it from? i got it from where it already was, but by me taking it, it isn't there anymore, it's in my possession. Do you know what i'm getting at?

This is really giving me a headache now so i will now bid farewell..
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I read this book once by Ray Bradbury called "A sound of Thunder" which describes how a tourist went into the past to hunt dinosaurs that were going to be killed anyway by forces of nature. He accidentally steps on some butterfly or something which then chain reacts into an alternate future where everything, language in particular, has been changed.


Simpsons did it!
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Would the anti-time people rise from the dead, and grow younger? Would they fear birth?



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Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Actually it would be normal for anti-time person. In fact, it just seems his life is weird for us. We would see him come alive, go backward etc to birth. But to him he went from birth to death. We would be weird in same way to him.
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
quote]As soon as he enters (imagining this as how The Terminator enters hehe) he will see everyone around him notice his appearance straight away, then looking away (because obviously everything is in reverse to him) then everyday life continues backwards.

Reverse would be true. People would have seen him there the whole time, they would turn and stare only when effects of his entrance/leave happens. But at the same time, man walking and doing stuff backwards would hold everyone's attention from beginning to end.

Now, bit down to the earth, what happens when he goes to restroom?
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Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Would the anti-time people rise from the dead, and grow younger? Would they fear birth?


Actually, that's already been done too....Mork from Ork had a son who was all grown up as a baby and then regressed as he aged....I take it you don't recall "Mork & Mindy"? Ah yes, Jonathan Winters hatched from an egg to become Robin Williams "son".....sort of farout man!
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
That Mr. "XX"

I meant that the big "Terminator" entrance would cause the attention, not the man walking backwards.

any more thoughts on this? i thank you all for participating in this interesting topic. I'm actually submitting this is a script if it turns out well. i thought this might actually work better as a horror film as the backwards action thing looks freaky, and sounds freaky.

I now have an honourable challange for all you smart folk. Solve the following paradox:

You can't communicate with Anti-time, like with the Note example. My challange is for you to figure out how this COULD work. if anyone thinks they can solve it, you will be credited on the script..
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Anti-Time? Is it skinnable?
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Perhaps time does not move at all, but we move through time. Time seems to pass as we travel through it, just as a landscape would to any passenger looking out from a moving vessel. It would be normal to see where we are now and recall where we have been and of course unable to see ahead. Or at least too far ahead. Ever drop something valuable or get hurt and experience that "slow-motion" moment where time seems to stand still and you almost see whats coming before you react but your unable to react. That intangible grasp at prescience seems to be all that most of us are permitted. You can never be totally sure of just whats up the road. And some force seems to keep us moving forward, the "flow" of time? so that "back tracking" is impossible. Life and death may turn out to be as simple as getting into a new car . How much wear and tear can one vehicle take anyway?

And yet breaks seem to occur, for some more than others. Glimpses of the landscape ahead. Ever had deja-vu? Or visions of some past life. Breaks in the barriers that trap us in our "flow" or what we are able to perceive of it, seem to occur for whatever reason. Trauma, heightened awareness, strong will. Who knows.

Anyway, with that theory in mind, a person who could regress or transverse time would'nt necessarily create alternate timlines by altering events.He would alter reality. If all time existed simultaneously as a landscape, past present and future ,all the items (people, places and things) would be laid out on that landscape like blocks on a table. A person capable of going back for example to move some item from point A to point B would simple change what the next "traveler" sees when he arrives at that point in the "flow".

It might bear noting that we as individuals need not be in sync with the other "travelers" and we are probably not. Our position on the "Table" and our point in the "flow" are two seperate things. Now, I never thought about Anti-Time, but it would also be conceivable for their to exist those who are riding around the table in reverse. They too would simply come across objects and events as they are at the moment they pass. Remember that normally we only seem to see the way things are now and in one direction, wether thats forward or reverse is probably irrelevant. And we only make one pass in the vehicle we are currently in (again, normally).

OK, so how to communicate with someone in Anti-time? Im not sure. It's pretty hard to interact with those on the other side of the highway. At some point we are travelling towards one another, a brief moment of passing, then we are moving away from each. Imagine trying to fit in a conversation with a friend as your two cars pass on the freeway. Forget it, I'll call him later. Or I could call him now on my "cell" if he has his with him. (using a "Hands Free" device of course). AHEM... And perhaps thats what would be needed apart from the ability to time travel. A way to communicate. A "Chrono-phone". A small handheld time/transmitter.
Just thought of something else... Ever missed an important call? Not with this baby.
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
If there were to be a film based on this, what genre would be suitable? What kind of concept would bring Anti-Time about? where what and who would be involved. Post your thoughts!
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
A movie would be like a great great great grandfather passing his great great great grandson somewhere in time and they fight the bad guys together. and so on.
Reply #18 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Alright. We've come up with the a few ideas.

There's a mansion type thing and everything's happening in reverse. There's a guy who's in positive time and sees that the entire family is hanged and he sees them get hung in reverse. They're hung impossibly high, so high, that they couldn't have been hung by a human person. The main character(s) sees blood dripping in reverse, and when he comes back later in another scene, they have disappeared. Basically the mansion in 16/17th century. The reason why they're there is because some alchemist, who summoned this family from a parallel dimension, bringing along a reverse time frame (negative time). Interconsequentiality is an action which begins at the end point. For example, someone could enter the house at 1 AM, and this is the end point because it's the last thing they see, or they could enter at 2 AM and the end point has now changed. Interconsuentiality is an action that changes one's future aswell as changing everyone's past at the same time. But the past-changing effects would only be relative to the person who does it. For example, as in the far above situation, there is a killer standing on the corner of a street. Suddenly, some terrorist vehicle drivers in and drops a gun for him. He waits for a moment and then goes to pick it up. He then shoots some innocent teenager. So me being from his anti-time, i see that the death takes place first. And as we have already established that saving the victim would be futile, we cannot do anything about this. So i go and intercept this occurance by removing the gun. But to him (the killer) he has just seen me deliver him the gun instead of the terrorist. Which means i have now just changed his past, because i am now the holder and deliverer of the gun. Interconsequentiality.

Anyway. So the alchemist is also a very religious individual. He is fully aware that this is a sin of some kind. So he summons this particular family to live in this mansion. They cannot leave this mansion but due to interconsequentiality, they are immortal to natural causes (hunger, age, disease etc) because their consciousness goes forward, but their physical bodies are going backwards. However they can still die by intervention. The family are stuck so they become insane over time. The alchemist's great descendant (being in they year 2000 or whatever) is the central character to this film, and he discovers research notes etc and wants to find more about his experiments on this particular field. He will enter this house and create the start point relative to himself, which means that he has established the end of the family's journey. He enters seeing them all hanged really high in the main hall. from there on, he will see every twist and turn unfold into the event in which caused this entire paradox. Remember that due to the time-flux thing that he is also immortal to natural causes. And the most freakiest thing is he now cannot leave the house.

Well this is what me and Adam came up with anyway..

Any ideas of things that visually look disturbing in reverse?
(eg birth, death, pleugh)
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Your born - you live - you die. Make the most of that little bit in between. This theorisation gives me a headache just reading it. I'm off to golf. Now that I think about it my golf balls regularly disappear into the Fourth Dimension,the Past or maybe the Future?
Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here's a website that explains the theory of Anti-time and anti-matter. Check it out if you're interested but too confused by it.

http://www.2xtreme.net/~mikew/you/ch5.htm
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Here's much smaller story that's a paradox too.

Suppose there was two guys in kitchen, one going backward in time.

In backward guy's perceive, another guy "un-ate" the breakfast. He then grabs the plate before other guy "un-makes" the breakfast then eats it.

Who made the breakfast? In normal time, the anti-time guy unate the breakfast then another guy ate it. Other way, the same but normal guy un-ate it then backward guy ate it.
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Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Yeah we've already typed that, we just used a different example. In this example there is a gun and somebody's about to pick it up and shoot someone, and then someone in anti-time removes the gun, we means that he put the gun there in reverse again. Where did he get the gun that he'd taken? we mentioned it already. you're using a good example though. well done.