oh wait, seems I entered the wrong door...

This is the Political Party Pissing Contest, my mistake..

I knew there was a reason I had given up on the thought that a serious discussion could take place without the "My Dog's better than Your's creeping into it"...

won't happen again...

Welcome to the real world, IPlural... Politics is not a pretty business to be in/be associated with/argue about. Always has been, always will be.

I feel like a serious mental disease has overcome most of the people I see today. I don't know how to describe it other than the polarization, the hatred and the lack of insight in everyone is astounding.  It makes me really sad to see so many good people supporting such bad actions. I don't know if it's just fear or if there really is some mental disorder, perhaps a contagious one, raging through the population in America.

Event, rather funny reading you sending me a welcome to the real world considering I was in and out of the service before you where a glimmer in your parents eyes.

You want real world?

Don't hold your breath, remember they are speaking of Years to come for War. You will get your chance to visit that part of the real world in time. Do you honestly think kids are going to grow up and be busting down the doors to join up and go kill and die out of a desire to, well, go kill and possibly die?

You had best hope that people put the crap mentality away and get down to working through all sides of the issue before your turn comes around.

5000 Veterans are being called away from their established civilian lives because there is not enough reserves and active military for just Iraq. 1000's will spend an unknown time there over the next months? 2 years? 10 year?

Afghanistan is not a finished deal, the Taliban still form up and attack as they will. That will take years also, unless we make another mistake and cut and run again...

They pretty much let it be known that we will go anywhere we like to take out terrorists with or without the help of the local government where they might hold up. Iran and Syria have been classified as being Terrorist states, North Korea, well hell, who knows what is going to come from that.

Radical Islamic peoples are around the globe and it only takes one person to blow up a truck full of diesel fuel and fertilizer. They are ready to die and actually seem to look forward to do it with self pride in dying for their cause and their warped vision of their religion. How long until any number of them inject them self with Ebola or any other number of Virus and take a long flight to a distant land while not showing signs of infection. Only to become a breeding vessel while on the flight spreading it to any number of people on the jet, then those people take it home and to work. Their kids take it to school and other kids take it home while the co-workers do the same.

Short of genocide how are we going to Kill Terrorism into extinction? As many as we kill we create more who in turn will have a number of which do succeed in an attack, end up dead making more and so on...

You've a lot to look forward to Tom, I honestly wish you didn't, and I really hope in the end it turns out differently. But we've made some serious mistakes up to this point and people playing at the "Dirty Game of Politics" < that is one of the worst things we've allowed to happen, making it a damn POLITICAL GAME. It isn't a game, far from it...

But, sorry to say it isn't the real world of serious interaction seeking solutions, at least not productive interaction. Hell anyone can jump into things and start letting emotion control the thought process. There are prisons, divorce courts, hospitals and grave yards full of proof to that.

Though you've pretty much proven your perspective, first you play with Clinton as if Monica and he makes a damn difference? Then want to throw out Kerry as if that means anything more? Why not Gore or Hillary?

Spin and twist it as you like, I'm done with it. but please do not poke at me again I've two boys in the service today of which both are almost twice your age. I think I have a grasp about what life is about.


[Message Edited]

I have to agree with DavidK on this one. Here's my reasoning....this site http://www.moveon.org/front/ MoveOn.org, which I am gagging to even think I went to it, is very anti-Bush, Republican, Rush Limbaugh, etc., which is fine. I support their right to present their case as to why Bush's administration should not be re-elected, as much as any liberal would support Rush Limbaugh's preaching of why John Kerry shouldn't be elected. Free speech and exchange is something a good chunk of the world doesn't have. It's something worth fighting for and it's something that tends to make us Americans come across as arrogant

But anyways, back to the MoveOn.org site.....front page.....where's Kerry? where's the rah-rah for the next leader of the Democratic Party that's going to oust Bush? Where are all the democratic leaders shouting praises and huzzas? 50% of Americans, according to polls, are either supportive of Kerry or done with Bush. Do these people have a mental disease? I think so. Kerry's standing over in the corner going "Hey Fellows, Yoohoo, over here, I'm trying to run a campaign and put the democrats back in power, right now would be a good time to focus on me, Yoohoo" and they're not. It's like deep down inside the Dems kinda know that they got a lame horse running this year, another Dukakis and nobody really wants to says so, but nobody really wants to be associated with Kerry either.

The MoveOn family of organizations consists of three entities. MoveOn.org, a 501(c)(4) organization, primarily focuses on education and advocacy on important national issues. MoveOn PAC, a federal PAC, primarily helps members elect candidates who reflect our values. And MoveOn.org Voter Fund, a 527 organization, primarily educates voters on the positions, records, views, and qualifications of candidates for public office.

That's the line at the bottom of the site....go to the MoveOn.org Voter Fund site....front page....where's Kerry, I see Bush, Gore and Clinton. Why can't the Dems come out and say it...."Look America, we made a mistake, Kerry isn't who we think should be representing us....it should be John Edwards." Problem is they were betting on Howard Dean, but he kinda blew a gasket, or forgot to take his prosac or something. John Edwards, who fits the down-to-earth southern gentleman role didn't have the money or support from the Dems in the beginning to run a decent campaign, Edwards would've been the next Bill Clinton, back before he became the figure head of immorality in the whitehouse. Edwards would've secured the whitehouse for the Dems for the next eight years. So why are 50% of Americans blindly supporting John Kerry other than a serious mental disease?

be funny if everyone freaks them out and votes ( other ) or ( Mickey Mouse )

I'll probably watch the Democratic National Convention this year. Some grassroots organization is trying to get enough delegates together to force Kerry to take Howard Dean on as his running mate.....Last one I watched was when Bob "viagra" Dole accepted the Republican nomination and at the time I thought, well we're looking at another four years of Clinton and Gore.

You know what, Steamboat Willie might not be a bad choice

I am betting Iran is next...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ISRAEL?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Jul 2, 4:02 PM EDT Israel Minister Raises Concerns Over Iran By BARRY SCHWEID AP Diplomatic Writer WASHINGTON (AP) Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told the White House on Friday that Iran was trying to develop longer-range missiles that could pose a threat to European nations. Shalom took his concerns to Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, and then told reporters: "We cannot allow the Iranians to move forward in their efforts to develop nuclear weapons." Israel's long-held concern that it could be targeted was registered again by Shalom. "The Iranians still continue to do everything they can in order to develop nuclear weapons that might, of course, be used against Israel," he said. In fact, the foreign minister said, Iranians have warned on several occasions that one missile fired toward Israel would destroy the country.

Oops...

Iraq Nations get a warning from NATO By wire services Published July 3, 2004 BRUSSELS - NATO's top civilian official warned Friday that Afghanistan and Iraq were doomed to be failed states if the United States and the international community did not find a way to work together to save them. Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, NATO's secretary-general, also sharply criticized the Bush administration for abandoning NATO as an alliance and using it when it suits Washington's interests. "Can we afford two failed states in pivotal regions?" de Hoop Scheffer said in an interview. "It's both undesirable and unacceptable if either Afghanistan or Iraq were to be lost. The international community can't afford to see those countries going up in flames. There would be enormous repercussions for stability, and not only in those regions." De Hoop Scheffer's bleak analysis of the situation in Afghanistan and Iraq contrasts with the rosier view of the Bush administration, which has portrayed the countries as well on the road to becoming stable democracies that will serve as models for the region.

oopsy

Also . . . NO SARIN FOUND: Sixteen rocket warheads found last week in south-central Iraq by Polish troops did not contain deadly chemicals, a coalition spokesman said Friday, but U.S. and Polish officials agreed that insurgents loyal to former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and foreign terrorist fighters are trying to buy such old weapons or the services of Iraqi scientists who know how to make them. A SLOW START: Only $366-million has been spent of the $18.4-billion President Bush and Congress provided last fall for rebuilding Iraq, a White House report showed Friday. Despite the administration's initial emphasis on speedy reconstruction in Iraq, the amount is less than 2 percent of the rebuilding money lawmakers provided. The figure, in the latest quarterly report by the budget office, marks the first time the administration has said how much of the money has been spent. [Last modified July 3, 2004, 01:00:34]

oopsy dasiy

Jul 2, 8:18 PM EDT Report: Felon voting list includes thousands of eligible voters MIAMI (AP) More than 2,100 Floridians who had their voting rights restored were included on a list of felons potentially ineligible to vote, a newspaper reported Friday. The names were on a Florida Division of Elections list of more than 47,000 people who may be felons that appear to match the names of registered voters. The list was sent to county elections supervisors, who are expected to determine who should be removed from the rolls. The Miami Herald, in a computer analysis, found at least 2,119 on that list had received clemency and were eligible to vote. State elections officials disputed the Herald's report, calling the newspaper's report incomplete and misleading. Spokeswoman Nicole de Lara said the newspaper did not check the list with Florida Department of Law Enforcement records, so some of the people who received clemency could have committed another felony and lost their voting rights again. The state checks the clemency list against records from the FDLE and the Corrections Department. The Herald used only correction records. The newspaper stood by its story and said the FDLE records covered a smaller number of felons compared with the more comprehensive corrections department data. "I can understand it's embarrassing to them, but it's an accurate, important and solid news story for the people of Florida," said Manny Garcia, the Herald's metro editor. "We scrubbed (the list) down, we analyzed it and came up with the results."

[Message Edited]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/specials/interactives/election/explainer/index.html?SITE=FLPETELN&SECTION=POLITICS

For anyone overseas who wonders how it is supposed to work here in the states, and those in the states who do not know or do not remember...

A slow start... http://www.boston.com/dailynews/185/wash/White_House_defends_slow_expen:.shtml a little more info than the excerpt provides

Absolutely 100% NOT GA Do It!

no sarin found...troops find car-bomb production site and three hostages freed some of the more postive news coming out of Iraq http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001971485_iraqdig03.html Though in principle, the release of the hostages has more to do with giving in to terrorists and public relations

I tried the St. Petersburg Decision2004 link and got big red x's site must not like IE6

I think the point that needs to be made and continues to need to be made is get involved in the process and vote. Do your own research. Going to see the Michael Moore movie or just listening to the Rush Limbaugh program or reading the banter going on here isn't enough. Come to your own conclusions and do something about it. Doesn't matter which side of the fence your sitting on if you don't do anything about it. Though I disagree with most of what the Dems and liberals are saying, I have more respect for the views of a person that is a Dem and a liberal that does get involved, than a person that doesn't, no matter what their party affiliation is.

exactly so

people HAVE to be active and be a part of the system or lay down and take whatever the system throws at them...

"#161 by Scribe Essencay - 7/3/2004 8:06:42 AM
no sarin found...troops find car-bomb production site and three hostages freed some of the more postive news coming out of Iraq Link Though in principle, the release of the hostages has more to do with giving in to terrorists and public relations

I tried the St. Petersburg Decision2004 link and got big red x's site must not like IE6"



There was sarin found, 16 of the total did not have any. The mortar rounds contained it as well as the rest of the rockets.

IP, that part of my post was more of a 'joke', as I am fully aware that you have been around the world a few more times than I... Seems you missed that...

I was making fun of the post immidiately preceding my own, as the poster seemed to be 'put out' because of the 'unfriendly nature' of the political 'brawl' that was taking place in this thread. I figured that he, being older than myself, would realize that threads like this (On the subject of politics) are almost never full of warm fuzzies, and 'lets get togethers'.

EH, I'm a bit off trying to get back. not you and I went into the out field with how I took things and responded.

must be the new glasses I am now stuck with hehe

yeah, odd how close to a dysfunctional relationship party lines can push people to with fellow citizens in any nation on this rock.

smoke and mirrors though, because in the end, after all the banter and such, people end up putting that stuff away before any real change comes about, though most keep it close to hand when out of sight

Like Thor, one must never let ones hammer get to far from hand


btw, the glasses thing, I have to wear glasses 24/7 now which is rather shocking considering I have always had 20/20 vision except for the last year when the headaches started. Now my eyes do not totally focus, age is such a neat thing


[Message Edited]

It's hard to believe a thread about a movie has sparked this much debate about stupid politics...

"about a movie"

...lol, not just ANY movie.. it isn't TOP GUN, afterall

I HAD to see if someone asked my childhood hero Gene Simmons about the flick glad to see someone did...

From genesimmons.com:

" I don't mean to pry into your political opinions (regardless of the fact that you haven't seemed to shy about sharing them in the past.) But I am interested as to what your opinion is regarding "Farenheit 9/11".
Your political views in the past have always intrigued me, and I'm interested on what you have to say regarding Michael Moore and the film.
-Paul Koch

Response from Gene:

Fahrenheit is a well made political opinion piece.
The only problem is that it pretends to be a documentary. A documentary is factual and tends not to take a point of view.
A political opinion piece, if it is skewed too strongly and disregards some grey elements of truth, is called "Propaganda." Look up the meaning in your dictionary.

Either way, it's a very well made piece."

....and from Iraq on a not so positive note > http://www.themercury.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,10038582%255E401,00.html

Let us remember that we are all friends here okay?

Regardless of our political views, we are friends. As far as I know, nobody here is the emperor of any country let alone a congressman or senator.  So while voicing our opinions is entertaining, they are just that - opinions.

I often very loudly voice my political beliefs but as important as my ideals are (to me), I never forget that when debating about them on the net it is not much different than playing some multiplayer RTS or any other quasi-intellectual endeavor.

I would hate to see people change their opinion of others on here simply because they have different political beliefs.

yeppers
same same