I have to live with the arcane concept of 'fair use' and 'fan art' which is not a universally applied sub-set of the copyright law, but is in effect in the US.

yes, but that would allow both rippers (first and second) to distribute their rips and is therefore irrelevant.

What is deemed 'acceptable' in the majority of skinning sites is that the use of OS images is 'OK' as the skins are an enhancement/adjunct to that OS.

which is also irrelevant outside the skinning world.

God knows how this can be explained to you, personally,

maybe She will explain me that on Epiphany. we usually talk about more important issues though.

moshi.....the whole concept of porting an OS is different to copying a private individual's images.

Don't give me this crap....you are not that stupid to see the difference.

If one accepts 'porting' of an OS...eg to create a MS version of Linux....or a Linux version of Windows....via their respective GUI shells....it's a different issue to grabbing the Mona Lisa and calling it a WinAMP skin.

Give me a break....I'm not in the best mood to split hairs with the argumentative.

"you are not that stupid to see the difference."

that was a Freudian. there is not that much of a difference, it´s both lame and boring. but yeah that difference exists for me as well, i often said that´s it´s fine for me if you want to steal from companies, file-share or distribute warez (that $20 shareware font is still distributed in a well known author´s skin here - nearly 15,000 downloads => $ 300,000 damage ) or whatever. i don´t really care.

but when people want to copyright rips it gets weird sorry, but i just see that from a real life perspective.

i might close this with a quote from William Bart:

BB: Not designers that matter, no. What is the point of plagiarizing Aqua? Apple has every right to protect their intellectual property, as far as I'm concerned. Inspired by Aqua, that's a different story... but these are direct ripoffs, not 'inspired' pieces. The vast majority use pixels captured either directly from OSX or from screenshots. Zero originality = zero sympathy, at least as I see it. A lot of wasted effort for what? Exercise?

http://www.teknidermy.com/issue4/iviewbart.html

What is NOT ok is a second person making use of those same images in the same creative way as the first person. The first person's creative input/originality is being plagiarised by the second person....and that is deemed 'ripping'.

So because Juni stole those images first, then that makes it ok. Well, we better call Microsoft to take down those images off their MSN site, cause obviously Juni has them copyright, cause obviously he must, using them in both his Pocket MSN and myPDA skin.

Lonnie the Skinner...being deliberately obtuse is wasting your breath....and your audience's interest.

I'm trying to make a point. Jafo, you said that because Juni grabbed those images from the net, THEREFORE no one else in the whole bloody world can use that MSN House, Clock, Person, Linky-thing, in ANY skin, EVER again. I mean, seems like Juni is subverting all rights and establishing his own, "new" copyright, because he happened to stumble across that page first.

If he was the first to use an image in a specific and original way then it is that 'use' which he would have rights to, not the image itself.

If you stuck your shoe on your head....you may see that as original...another doing likewise would be copying.....neither of you invented the shoe.

It isn't that difficult to understand.....use a brain.

Lonnie...

your ears must be plugged or in this case eyes must blocked, grab your shoulders and pull really hard towards your back and listen for the loud pop.

I understand you are attempting to present your position (which is already known) but it has gotten to be a moot point. Thrash and trash all you like, but please do it some other place.

Or better yet Why don't you pratice what your chosen nick implys and skin something of your own so you are not put into the position of defending what you submit to a site?

Frankly isn't that what skinning is about, not staying with the status quo and creating something origional?

on an off note, don't you find yourself wondering what it is exactly that not only you but anyone else involved is being so sticky with on this subject?

When I do something I want it to be the best damn thing I can do so when others look and ask I can say with some level of pride that "yes I did that..." it is called self satisfaction in expressing my talents...

Using anything that someone else has done and claimnig "yeah I did that" is no more than mental masturbation in that one is seeking self satisfaction from others efforts and nothing more than false acclaim.


I would hope your beyond that...

and in no way do I apply this to porting which is a valued process in my opinion and does in fact have proven talent needed to do correctly. So don't anyone try to claim I imply otherwise...

[Message Edited]

I wish I would have gotten riches beyond my wildest dreams for making the default dashboard skin, sadly all I got was bragging rights.

The myPDA skin, while not the hardest one I ever made, did take a lot of work (I think around 30-40 layers, which is around average for any skin I make). It was mostly a concept skin, the idea being to make it look as smooth as possible - like a product that actually could have been released. I kinda like doing skins like that (and they are hugely popular).

Of course, the other kind of skins I enjoy making even more are like the "Engine" skin: I call those my "weird" skins.

Now, someone said I only support skins for products I like, and the ones I don't support never get any skins. I fail to understand that, because that would imply that I am the only Pocket PC skinner in the world.



To everything else: "What jafo said"
(because he has the gift of explaining things so that they can be understood).

My point is quite simple. It's absurd to think that Juni owns the rights to how he uses stolen images. I mean, if he goes and steals screenshots from Longhorn, to make a Longhorn-esque taskbar, does that mean "I" or anyone else cannot do that?

C'mon, it's a taskbar. If Juni didn't bother to create the damn images himself, he has no right to tell anyone else that they can't find the same source, and use them in a similar manner. I don't see anyone raising a stink when everyone else grabs a screenshot of your Windows XP taskbar and create yet another "original" XP skin, but in this case, because Juni stole the MSN images for his myPDA, and stuck em on the desktop, oo..there's copyright there! WATCH out!

There's some very loose ethics and double standards going on here. Either it's all illegal, and we're just having fun creating fan art, or we're just ripping each other off all the time, and therefore no one in the wide wide world can create another OS skin after it's been done once.

I mean, if he goes and steals screenshots from Longhorn, to make a Longhorn-esque taskbar, does that mean "I" or anyone else cannot do that?

no, not in the least...

But recreating the exact overall skin with a few minor changes and slapping ones own attribute to it is less than palatable.

Working together on such a thing is something totally different again.

Communication of possible areas of improvment, suggestions presented and not taken up which are followed up with a request to make them and upon releasing them with full disclosure of whom ahs done exactly what is the correct process to take it up.

But pulling a standerized icon out and using (within the gifted rights of the trademark or copyright holder is not only correct it is legal) it without modification is not something anyone should do for personal legal reasons. It is also something that no site should let be stored and presented to the public for download because it could very well drag them into the fray if the trademark/copyright holder ever sought out legal solutions to the use of their materials (hence Apple chasing people and sites around with a gaggle of lawyers for messing with Aqua material)

Two wrongs do not make a right without question, but beating a dead horse publicly borders upon inane.

There's some very loose ethics and double standards going on here. Either it's all illegal, and we're just having fun creating fan art, or we're just ripping each other off all the time, and therefore no one in the wide wide world can create another OS skin after it's been done once.

thats just it.. Fan art is Gifted material, though those materials still have some sort of condition for their use.

Skinning is the same, there should not be any gray areas with it. Until such time that people take it upon them self to actually practice there not being any gray/grey areas there will always be contention.

Personally, I will be releashing material publicly with registered copyright through a service and I will also release publicly free to use and modify material at the same time. There will nto be any question as to what is freely given to the gerneral public and what is gifted copryright materials. There will be water marked layers inside each image aong with overall in total theme/skin screen shots with the same layer. Notification will be included with each type of material and the rights granted for each type.

It is a subscription service located at http://www.c-site.com and there is also a legal service which deals with infringment if it comes to that ( though I would not seek such unless someone used material in a commercial product such has taken place with a certain persons icons in a web management product: for example )

But even Fan Art has it's stipulations applied to it being gifted material, no one other than the origional creator or copyright/trademark holder owns the material or any derivative of that materail if it is directly employeed in what they claim as their own.

It really isn't an issue of who did what first, but one of gray areas muding up the waters and only we as a community control that, just as we as a community and on individual levels decide what a skining site will be...

frankly I'd like a nice productive inclusive one where people work alone and together as the need or feeling hits them withou fear or fame of being dragged or dragging others into the mud.

[Message Edited]

It will be interesting to see what happens to the PPX application since the creator defends the actions of Lonnie/Luni and others who copy skins, I became a registered user of PPX myself before this whole issue happened and frankly my whole opinion on the product is soured. I've read opinions on BH that others are feeling this way too.

I made my comparison above to skinning and rap music or other music that "samples" content. Just because you take a skin that samples other material and tweak it or build the exact same thing from scratch doesn't make it yours or your idea.

I've seen PPX team members on BH saying that this Lonnie guy is "just doing this to get on Juni's nerves." Well is that the purpose of PPX? To annoy people? If it is, you've certainly succeeded. >

this is a quote from the PPX developer when I suggested skinners will be scared off

Skinners should be no more scared to skin for PPX as they are for any other application, the same caveats apply in all of them. This is an ignorant argument and I am tired of it being used to cause panic to suggest to people they shouldn't skin for PPX

I think all would have been well for PPX if the developer had simply told anyone contacting him to direct their complaints to the website hosting the offending skins. He chose to get involved and chose to make silly suggestions like don't rock the boat! Apparently in an email I received he says he will involve MS and Snoopsoft. Ok your making ms skins and skinning an ms os with elements that parody ms... I don't think they will be concerned and snoopsoft should stay out of it just as PPX should have.

Yeah, I really lost my top over there at BH at those PPX defenders. It just saddens and frustrates me to know end that so many people would really and truly think that this kind of thing is ok. If Michael Pollard or Ppxskins (yes, he's defended him, so he's involved) had any integrity at all, the skins would be removed, no questions, no ifs, ands or buts.

Could ya tell I lost my temper a bit? It felt really good. I had just assumed BH had banned me. Well, it was for a good cause.

"What is NOT ok is a second person making use of those same images in the same creative way as the first person. The first person's creative input/originality is being plagiarised by the second person....and that is deemed 'ripping'."

Yes but only by a "thieves code". I rip or borrow nothing so the second skinner that "borrows" is just as guilty to me as the first.

In the real world, if someone rapes a person, then gets raped again by someone else, the first raper is no less guilty then the second raper. That is why it is difficult to defend skinners to people who are not skinners, it seems.

"God knows how this can be explained to you, personally, as a bolt from the almighty would fall on deaf ears, but without getting all esoteric and hypothetical and idealist, the reality is that if you are NOT the first person to use an MS icon as a bookend then you are the second and therefore most likely have copied the first."

Well, from what I saw from Lonnie's actions, at first he simply copied Juni's images directly from Juni's skins. Then he went to the same source Juni did. This would be the eqivalent of them each taking a pair of Nike's from the same store. Of course also, later, Lonnie made similar looking objects, objects that are close but not the same. Enough so, that if you merely glanced you couldn't really tell. Only way to really tell was to open both up in a graphic editor or use both skins (but that is another issue altogether I think). Which I feel was an intentionally way to get attention. He could get Juni in an uproar and then say "Ah-HA!".

And yes I do get it, under your "thieves code" the laws are born of convenience. Whatever is good for the majority of the coven, no other legal or real world factors are really taken into account. Sorry for not completely understanding, I live in the real world and don't traverse this side of the tracks often. I appologize, I was already confused from the get go, because if I went to the store and stole something I would have to go to jail. This all seemed to be the same issue to me. I see now, either developers do NOT know or they conveniently turn a blind eye.

"I think all would have been well for PPX if the developer had simply told anyone contacting him to direct their complaints to the website hosting the offending skins. He chose to get involved and chose to make silly suggestions like don't rock the boat! Apparently in an email I received he says he will involve MS and Snoopsoft. Ok your making ms skins and skinning an ms os with elements that parody ms... I don't think they will be concerned and snoopsoft should stay out of it just as PPX should have."

I wish I could have stayed out of it but from the get go, Plainsong and to an extent Juni, has used this to question my integrity, honor and ethics. With statements even implicating me in their guestbook. Again, I am not a skinner, so your thieve's code was offensive but at no time did I proceed to bash Dashboard or really anyone for that matter.

I could have very easily posted my theory on the whole thing. I think Juni and Luni are one in the same. The timing is convenient since Snoopsoft released Dashboard 2.0 and this could be easily used to stir emotions, which Plainsong has done so nicely. After the ruckus at BH, I do not feel bad in the least for saying this.

"It will be interesting to see what happens to the PPX application since the creator defends the actions of Lonnie/Luni and others who copy skins, I became a registered user of PPX myself before this whole issue happened and frankly my whole opinion on the product is soured. I've read opinions on BH that others are feeling this way too."

No, I have changed my mind now. I won't defend Lonnie's actions and I will not defend anyone else's. I am going to be fair and objective on the entire matter. I will not play favorites and I will bat down anyone who is even closely guilty to what Lonnie has done. Even if you are the FIRST to borrow an image.

Please make note these "discussions" do not exist at PPX3k.com. So whatever you read is strictly ouside agitants.

Who are all these dickheads we've attracted?

Go away the lot of you, flaunt your oversized egos in private.
I'm sick of all this pathetic whinging > > >

dickheads

How articulate Fuzzy. I have been around longer then you. I voice my opinion to what I believe is right and just. After all it is all in context to the origin of the thread. I have to assume by Lot of you that includes everyone. Plainsong and juni have both sub 1000 id's. The only two fresh ids are Michael and Lonny.

I will assume that your brain just got a lil' fuzzy for a moment and you have digressed to a low level.




edit: think of it like a tv... change the channel... click on a different thread
[Message Edited]

This entire ordeal has gotten me very cynical. There was a time when I thought the best of people. I thought that if some newbie came along and did a rip... instead of the entire community jumping down his throat, that instead the right thing to do would be to help him understand. I thought that most skin site mods and companies that supported skinning all shared the same ideals. How innocent I was..

I know that in terms of being a skinner, my opinions don't mean much here. I have graphics knowledge but no talent at it. But I know enough to know that Juni didn't steal from anyone, but plenty was stolen from him. There's more to it than sticking a resized icon on top of a longhorn screenshot. It's a quick one by Juni's standards, but not as easy as Michael makes out either. But then again skinners would know this.

And I know my rantings may be annoying, but if my rantings have warned one person to think twice before dealing with the PPX gang, then I've accomplished something. I suppose by default I'd be on Juni's side, but there's more to it than that. If my rantings and ravings are annoying, just ignore me, and hope that one day this doesn't happen to you.

Edit - /me has been around since the middle ages of the last skinz.org, but who doesn't say much...usually.
[Message Edited]

But I know enough to know that Juni didn't steal from anyone, but plenty was stolen from him. There's more to it than sticking a resized icon on top of a longhorn screenshot.

Right, and he's a martyr and we're all soaked in his blood?

Here, just for you plainsong, I'll speak really slowly, so you understand.

Juni...stole...images...from...here...
http://specials.msn.com/msn9/new/default.HTM

Now..I..know..you..have..graphics..knowledgeso..you..should..look..closely..at..his..myPDA..skin..here..
http://koti.welho.com/kruohio/mypda.html

..funny..they..are..dead..on..INCLUDING..THE..REFLECTION.

It's doesn't look like juni created them pixel for pixel, so your statement about juni not stealing anything is false. I don't care if he did or not (well I do, and if he'd just admit it, I think that would solve a whole lot of problems) but everyone is acting like juni is some sort of white martyr, guilty of nothing, when his use of the MSN graphics, clearly shows a a harvesting without little modification.

And yes, this is getting tedious, making the same point over and over, but once juni shows me the email, phone message, carrier pigeon message, from Microsoft saying that it's perfectly ok to steal their stuff, then I'll back off. But until then, we're all in the wrong. If I went and made a wincustomize skin, using images stolen from this site, wouldn't that be bad?

Lonnie, can you read?

LMAO.....this has gotten crazy....

How did this thread get so far off track?

Luni/Lonnie should have gained permision before dulpicating Juni's skins

Juni(and for God's sake Plainsong) shouldn't have been quite so sensitive, they could have waited more than a couple of hours for a reply from ppxskins admin before starting their hate campian at their site....kinda silly....

and the fact that this thread has gone so far from Luni/lonnie makes me wonder what the true agenda of blarney and some of these others are? Wasn't it Luni/Lonnie that made the skins in Question?

Like i said before....if Juni would contact the admin civily at ppxskins I'll bet they could have or still could work something out....

but that really doesn't seem to be the TRUE issue with some of the people posting here...

I just wish they would put their heads together instead of butting them and solve this problem....

Juni!....keep making skins....just be a little gentler with stealing accusations when you clearly did not make the original graphics.....agian i don't think that's any excuse for Luni...

Good Luck....and man you guys are funny