Ereog's Monument

If you are referring to Ereog's Tower then it is +1 fame per turn (by the xml files), it is also not +1 mana, it is +1 air shard mana. So, you get more air power.

I am refering to Ereog's Monument.

If this is unfamilar....perhaps this is a mod and I am unawares of it being so?

Yeah, you are referring to my wonder base mod... so yes it is precisely working as intended.

You should be able to upgrade to Ereog's Tower : ) (for a really cheap cheap price)

The point was that you get the wonder race by building a really "bad" building and then upgrade to the good building.

I guess I succeeded in making this mod an integral part of the game

lol

That you did.

Felt a bit deflating though....if Ereog's Tower has already been taken, then I've spent 90% of my time for only 1% reward.

Yes. the point is that if you didn't win the monument race then you have a civ option, you end up with nothing...or you get something, just not much.

For example if another country built the great pyramids... impressive but not the original.

However, it's not even really all that impressive. I'm wondering an adjustment is needed: the faction buildings should have a little more worth and take a little less time to construct, and have the final wonder take a little longer to build...

This way, you feel like you're getting something even if you lose the race, and yet....if you win the race, you feel the worth to take the time and finish for the final wonder.

So Ereog's tower was a particular difficult one to make a base. The actual monuments bonus was

+1 air power per season

+1 fame per season

My base that I made was

+1 mana per season

+1 fame -- period

I didn't have much to work with unlike the other monuments. I would have to change the actual ereog's tower bonus itself. All the bonuses were a subset of the original bonuses. The +1 fame per season is a rather powerful bonus, so I didn't want to include that bonus. +1 air power is a nice bonus, and should be the final product as well. So, this leaves me with what I did above.

What do you suggest without changing the actual wonder tower bonus and make the base be a significantly lower bonus than the original?

I suppose that I could change it from +1 fame, to more like .2 fame per season, or 1 fame every 5 seasons. Then it would be a better boon, what do you think about that bonus instead?

I'm famous!  I get more famous by 0.2 per week/season (depending on mod). <grin>

Have it give +1 infamy per season.

Well, you don't have to be limited to the '+1' for starters.

For example, Ereog's Monument could provide a flat 50 Fame with an additional +1 mana per air shard per turn.

By the time it's built, 50 Fame won't mean that much...though I would argue that mana per turn could be better than the air shard....depends on how many air shards you have...

The air mana counts as +1 mana per season as well as an air shard. A flat 50 would equate to 50 turns with the original tower in place. Which I agree is not that much, but that is still 50 turns you didn't have to wait for the fame. So, I adjusted it to be +1 fame per every 5 seasons, which gives about 1/5 the price of the original tower. I just think that the tower itself is rather underpowered. It could probably use a boost.

I guess your right about the +1 airman stat. It is just +1 to the air power. That makes the tower rather... unworthy the effort really.

SO, perhaps then this thread should be about how to make Ereog's Tower more balanced?

For starters, the tower could grant the sovereign a specialized spell casting trait....something along the lines of aeriomancy...but with better spells. Since only 1 faction will be getting this tower, the spells can't be broken, but they would have to be interesting and unique.

The tower could always gain the ability of +1 mana per air shard per turn. Extra mana never hurt anyone...

I suppose lastly, are there other structures to provide effective shard bonus for the other elements? If not, the Tower could just give all 4 shards; air, fire, earth, water. Perhaps the Tower could be designed into a 4 part structure, gaining a new shard type upon completion of each level.

I still think that, since this Ereog is strongly connected with heroes, that the completed structure should also be providing heroes within the city 1-3 XP per turn. Something that gives heroes reason to sit around.

Any other ideas?

Yup, this thread should be about beefing up Ereog's Tower.

The final towers, the tower of the witch, the sword, and such give you air mana, fire mana, earth mana, and water mana.

It just seems that Ereog's tower is a under powered world wonder. I like the air mana that one gets from the tower, maybe it should provide an extra essence to the city, or +1 mana (both would be overkill because of the meditation spell). The +1 fame per season is alright, but all the other world wonders only provide at most +10 fame, so it really looks like that is the boon for this tower.

It could provide an overall spell resistance bonus for troops trained in the city, or another troop trained bonus, like bonus to initiative. Maybe upon completion it summons similar to the binding ability, but gives you an air elemental instead.

There are lots of little ideas to place down for a bonus that this tower should provide. Not too game breaking and not to underpowered. Something to make the tower worth the effort building.

Someone who makes excellant mods could always expand his wondersmod to include revamped towers?

I'd have to take a closer look at the other towers before compiling together what I would think to be balanced.....which I would be more than willing to do. More to come this evening... (unless someone can post what the towers currently provide, as well as what Parrotmath's wondermod currently provides for the 'mini-towers', if anything)

Sounds good... most of the towers provide two shards a combo of air and fire or air and water, or earth and fire type things. They also provide other bonuses, but I don't remember what. My wonder's mod is only to make bases for the unique world wonders and so I didn't touch these other towers with my stuff, i.e., I didn't mess with any faction only buildings with the mod.

Good Morning

Okay....let's take a look at these major buildings:

Adventurer's Guild (allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
Stationed Units have 25% chance at gaining +1 XP per Turn
+1 Fame per Turn

Notes:
Imo this description should read +1 XP for Stationed Heroes to keep in line with actual. Recommend keeping this as +1 XP per Turn for Stationed Heroes.

Arena (allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+50% Food
+30% Gildar
+50% Growth when Producing Growth
Stationed Units have 25% chance at gaining +1 XP per Turn

Notes:
Does this building have the same 'error' occuring at the Adventurer's Guild? Recommend changing to +1 XP per Turn for Stationed Units.
Also, should THIS stucture be called the 'Great Arena' and the 'Great Arena' simply be called the 'Arena' ? Seem like a name change should occur.

Central Library (Parrotmath's MOD that acts as a base for Hosten's Library - allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+2% Research in all cities
+1 Fame

Notes:
The +1 Fame is pretty dismal for such an educated advancement. Recommend changing to +10 Fame.

Embassy (requires Base Town)

Provides:
Negates the unrest penalty from the amount of cities in your empire.

Notes:
This is VERY underwhelming. Only negates 3% unrest? Really? Consider revising. Is there a way to negate the unrest penalty in 'nearby' cities?
This appears to be a weaker version of Tower of Dominion (See below). Considering that, I recommend adding +5 Fame and +0.5 Growth. 

Ereog's Monument (Parrotmath's MOD that acts as a base for Ereog's Tower - allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+1 Mana per Turn
+1 Fame

Notes:
In conjunction with the world achievement, recommend increasing the provides to: +1 Mana per Air Shard per Turn AND +1 Fame per Turn

Ereog's Tower (World Achievement)

Provides:
+1 Air Power
+1 Fame per Turn

Notes:
Overall, an underwhelming achivement. Recommend increasing the provides to: +1 Air Power AND +3 Fame per Turn

Great Mill (World Achievement)

Provides:
+25% Food
+25 Production
+10 Fame

Notes:
The +10 Fame is underwhelming. Recommend increasing to +50 Fame.

Hosten's Library (World Achievement)

Provides:
+10% Research in all cities
+10 Fame

Notes:
The +10 Fame is underwhelming. Recommend increasing to +50 Fame.

Ironworks (World Achievement)

Provides:
+8 Metal per Turn

Notes:
With metal being so abundantly available, this wonder is useless. Recommend making metal slightly more scarce. Also recommend adding +50 Fame.

Large Foundry (Parrotmath's MOD that acts as a base for the Ironworks - allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+5 Metal Per Turn

Notes:
Presumably the +5 is an attempt to balance this structure with simply gaining the metal from ironore sites. Since, recommend that this provides be reduced to +3 Metal Per Turn. Also, in conjunction with the world achievement, recommend adding +10 Fame.

Large Mill (Parrotmath's MOD that acts as a base for the Great Mill - allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+5% Food
+5% Production
+1 Fame

Notes:
In conjuction with the world achievement, the +1 Fame is underwhelming. Recommend increasing the to +10 Fame

Merchantcross Bazaar (World Achievement)

Provides:
+10% Gildar in all cities
+10 Fame

Notes:
Because of the early access one has to this wonder, I am hesitant to have the +10 Fame increased to +50 like in the other world achievements. Perhaps +25 Fame is the right amount.

National Bazaar (Parrotmath's MOD that acts as a base for the Merchantcross Bazaar - allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+2% Gildar in all citiess
+1 Fame

Notes:
In conjunction with the world achievement, I recommend changing the fame bonus to +5 Fame.

Tower of Dominion (allowed 1 per faction)

Provides:
+1 Growth
+10 Fame
Negates unrest penalty from the amount of cities in your empire

Notes:
Understandably since this is an early game item, the unrest penalty shouldn't be huge, but 3% reduction is very minor. That said. the other items tend to balance it off....especially the +10 Fame which is critially important at the early stages of the game.

Other Notes:

- Why is 'Forge of the Overlord' called that? All the other 3 towers are 'Towers of the...". Recommend changing the name to 'Tower of the Overlord'.
Note: I have never gone for this victory (as I have heard it's too easy). It is possible, or perhaps already existing, that the requirement for the Spell of Making is for ALL four towers to be completed?

- I noticed several structures appearing twice in the Hiergamenon, presumably because of Parrotmath's MOD. Not sure if it's worth persuing to remove the duplicate copy? Nevertheless, for referance, the duplicates are: Foundry, Iron Mine, Market, Smelter, Tax Office.

- In many of the wonders and wonderbases I have recommended an increase to Fame. Presumably a player is unable to build ALL wonders during the coarse of the game, but if an inbalance does being to exist because of the increased Fame bonuses, then perhaps the Fame amounts need to be adjusted? (not sure where that is found...)

Well, there you have it Parrotmath. I have had no intension of stepping on your toes when it comes to your mod.

The +5 metal per turn is +1 metal per turn from the Foundry (provide +4 metal per turn), so the +3 metal per turn is less than it's predecessor, hence an increase by not a huge increase.

In my most recent Update I've actually fixed this problem already. Forgot to add the appropriate tag. I'm thinking I'll move the fame for the world achievements to be at least 2.5 times as much as the original, +25 fame, and raise my base mods to +5 fame (5 times as much). This should balance out most things. I'll continue to ponder the Ereog's Tower. I'm thinking of adding essence to the Ereog's Tower.

I only added the wonder base mod to address a very small group of people who wanted a wonder race between the other factions. So, my goal was simple provide a little boon, but make it a difference to be noticed with the bigger world wonders. So, you're not stepping on my toes. If you want design some buildings for each of the bases as that is what I have left to do.

An essence added to Ereog's Tower would be a very interesting way to go.

I still think +1 XP per Turn for Stationed Heroes would be another very nice added benefit.

I suppose the main question is why Ereog's Tower a per Turn Fame bonus whereas all the other wonders are a flat amount bonus...seems out of place. Maybe on this one, remove the per Turn bonus and have +10 Fame for the Monument and +50 Fame for the Tower (the only exception to your 2.5x proposal for wonders).

Probably a good spot to post this:

I'm currently looking to change the desciption of the Adventurer's Guild. Here's the improvement:

    <ImprovementType InternalName="AdventurersGuild">
        <DisplayName>Adventurer's Guild</DisplayName>
        <Description>The Adventurer's Guild will provide bonus experience every season to champions stationed in the city.</Description>
        <AllowedPerFaction>1</AllowedPerFaction>
        <RequiresCity>1</RequiresCity>
        <BarredTerrain>River</BarredTerrain>
        <BarredTerrain>SwampTerrain</BarredTerrain>
        <PreferredTerrain>City</PreferredTerrain>
        <PreferredTerrain>Category:Land</PreferredTerrain>
        <PreferredTerrain>Forest</PreferredTerrain>
        <Prereq>
            <Type>Tech</Type>
            <Attribute>Breons_Letters</Attribute>
        </Prereq>
        <LaborToBuild>540</LaborToBuild>
        <GameModifier>
            <ModType>StationedUnitStatBonus</ModType>
            <StrVal>UnitStat_Experience</StrVal>
            <StrVal2>OnlyChampions</StrVal2>
            <Value>1</Value>
            <Operator>25</Operator>
            <Provides>Stationed champions gain 1xp/season</Provides>
        </GameModifier>
        <GameModifier>
            <ModType>Resource</ModType>
            <Attribute>Fame</Attribute>
            <Value>1</Value>
            <PerTurn>1</PerTurn>
            <Provides>+1 Fame per Season</Provides>
        </GameModifier>
        <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
            <AIPriority>5</AIPriority>
            <AITag>CommandPost</AITag>
        </AIData>
        <ArtDef>Art_AdventurersGuild</ArtDef>
    </ImprovementType>

The operator line of 25 is apparently what is trying to give the 25% chance. Is it proper to just remove this line altogether?

Also, the same conditioning exists for the Arena improvement, but for unit experiance. Does the same error occur and will the same fix in simply wanting the +1 XP per turn work?

Thanks

Currently that operator business doesn't work the way the devs intended. As far as I know it never has as I set it to 1 before and still got 1 xp per turn. There is no need to actually remove that line unless you want to, just change the description to be consistent with what the tag is truly giving you.

just to chip in a bit, i'm curious why you want to add so much fame onto the wonders. The only purpose for fame at the moment is to attract heroes, and purchase henchman who act as heroes and are better in many ways). Do you want more than 6 heroes available to the player? because I would argue for less fame attached to these wonders. Every settlement with essence is worth a potential 8 fame, every lair you loot is worth 1, every quest is worth 10 (at least). I find by the time I get my third hero up and running (+1 for sov for a total of 4) the game is already decided unless some comp player manages to get a spell of mastery victory by sneaking it past you.

I point out here it is impossible to stop an ai from winning by spell of mastery if you have a non-aggression pact or alliance and you can not break it. yeah that sucks. 3 man stacks are only viable if you have really outteched your opponents, and if that happens you have already won. So I don't really understand the incentive for more fame on wonders, it would just make the problem worse not better.

(current altar gameplay: henchmen are an auto win if you manage to survive the early game and are comfortable in mid, then you explode out and rise to power, I have even watched the ai do this with henchmen as well)

It's an attempt to make wonders more valuable than they currently are. In addition, it's an attempt to better insert Parrotmath's wonderbase mod into the game more smoothly.

If Fame becomes too much of an issue, then perhaps units like Henchmen and Mercs will need to have their Fame cost slightly increased. There are also Sions that cost Fame....and there is a Mod out there that makes Sions...well worth playing with. Small Fame costs could also be added to things like Golems or Juggernauts to help balance the increase. Lastly,  the levels at which you gain heroes could also be raised....thus giving the illusion that you are gaining more when in actuality...you are not.

if you have to bump up the levels at which you gain heroes to accommodate the extra fame from wonders, then I think you are looing at the wrong stats to improve. If you are saying the wonders don't give you enough benefits, then you are better off looking at the other benefits - you're idea to add an essence slot to the tower is a great idea I love that.

edit: all I am really saying is why add more work, think surgical strike instead.

I think part of me wants to make Fame into more of a commodity that can be spent or hoarded, each with different results. I really like that you can spend to hire Henchmen, Sions, etc. Imo, any mecenary hired unit should cost some fame as well. Magical mercenary units like dragons should have mana upkeep and perhaps even fame upkeep in addition to the gildar. Once that is in place, it opens up the realm to all sorts of new creatures and units and summonings to be hired/cast.