[.80] Arcane Monolith Overpowered?

Indeed, they seem way too powerful compared to other faction traits, even though they cost 2 faction points to get. Compared to the pioneer unit building an outpost you can put it down instantly, you don't need to walk there and you don't have to tap into population/city growth, which is a really big thing considering how slow cities generally grow. 50 mana is too cheap.

My suggestion would be to add mana upkeep once they are placed, but they maintain the ability to be placed anywhere outside enemies borders. I think 1 mana per turn should be sufficient to reflect their huge advantage, and additional 50 mana as payment and 1 mana as upkeep for every upgrade. The upgrade is instantly built instead of going through city production. That would make it far more strategic to place them and it would even seem "realistic" in the established world that you have to pay mana to maintain and upgrade this magic construction.

Two faction trait points too cheap? I would say that's a hefty price tag. Especially since the rest of the trait isn't very useful.

Imho, the real problem are the pioneers: they are too expensive to be used for outposts, if you can also build a city with them.

Too many outposts early on do stifle your development.  I think it's fine.  It's powerful, but that+Scrying pool are the useful Pariden traits.

40 mana per turn (and you probably have some enchantments to maintain and some spells to cast per battle). And if this all does not make your mana short then you are somewhat mid-late game am i right ? At that stage i dont think arcane monolith is overpowered.

It is very powerful at begining when you need expand, but i think then mana is quite good limitation, because you cant spam AM at early game.

Since expanding your zone of control is THE most important aspect of the game for a start, I think 2 faction points for an instant-on-the-fly-no-city-growth-impeding-50-mana-costing outpost ist way too cheap, yes. I don't think the problem is the pioneer cost, we had a much bigger problem before when they only needed gold and/or production time to build. Expanding your zone of control should be a dilemma and it works pretty fine with the current mechanic. This important dilemma is bypassed by the Arcane Monolith in a big way.

I still think that a mana upkeep of 1 is very reasonable in line of gameplay and scenario considerations. You can get quite a lot of things early on that increase your mana income, especially if you play a magic sovereign and faction and if you generate a map with lots of shards. The synergies between talents and traits work very well here. It simply shifts the resources that you need for expansion away from the Civilization approach to the Magic approach, it perfectly encompasses the culture behind magical sovereigns/factions like Procipinee/Pariden and it offers a unique playstyle.

It's fine.

shhhhh.

Don't tell them.

since outposts cost population points in LH, the arcane monolith definitely became more powerful. but it's a 2 point trait, so it should be powerful - after all that's two thirds of your overall faction points budget. it's not like the other 2 point perks are terribly weak. they are all pretty good actually.

Pariden needs something powerful.  Don't change it.

I disagree. First of all expanding with CITIES is important at the begining, because 1 city wont let you get everything fast enough. Arcane monolith does not give you a city, well pioneer does.

Secondly its not about map or teritory control, you only take what you realy need what fits your idea of wining. You can cover map with outposts fairly fast, but whats of it if you looze most of them without protection.

Cities grouwth is important till they get till lvl 2 for specialization. Other lvls are just nice bonuss, but not some game breaking advantage, so i think you raising population value to much while looks like mana for you is worthles. Everytime i want to put arcane monolith i am considering that now i wont be able to cast for few turns and with war on my lands i would like to have some for hard time, so its also not easy choice.

Puting map settings on more shards or any other enhancments of your own choice does game imbalanced i agree there, buts thats you who made them... so who to blame... Seting game on easy looks overpowered, doesn't it ?

You can get quite a lot of things early on that increase your mana income...

Realy, name those lots of things... at early game...

Arcane Monolith gives you an area in which only you can build a city. The strategy is that you put it down in the area you want because of valuable tile yields, resources and choke points, then no other faction can place a city/outpost there and you are safe to get it or block the AI from getting through an area altogether. The game is all about map control from the first season on because it is heavily resource-based, all the other mechanics become important later on after you established your territory.

Attunement, Adepts, Meditation, Staff of Souls, Shards. That is more than you need to get lots of Mana early on, even if you don't change the map settings to dense shards.

I think Arcane Monolith is amazing. I honestly have a hard time playing without it! (which I admit, may mean its OP, I dunno). That being said I think its one of the best faction traits because it really changes how I play the game, i use a very different strategy when I have AM and its really cool, I wish all factions were like that, changing how your play the whole game. 

I really feel like the bigger issue they need to fix is that the AI doesn't actually seem to use AM at all right now, or the spell books, which basically makes the Delacron a useless trait for any AI player... which is really sad.

give them +1 mana upkeep cost

give them an upgrade that neutralizes the +1 mana upkeep that can be unlocked mid game somewhere in magic tech tree

That is a very good suggestion

thx 

Agreed. Very good suggestion.

Oh so in order to use AM with ease i have to spend 2 talent points for staff and attunement (2 mana per season = 25 seasons fo 1 AM). Ever tried to get a kill hit with 4 dmg staff ?

For meditation you first need essence, then you need sacrifice spot for enchantment (you can use soverigns call or food enchants you know for population and simply train pioneers)

Shards... well with normal set up you might get none of them to your first city. Its kind a luck thing. And first lvl of building yields 1 mana per season.

Adepts its 1 time bonus for 40 mana, not steady income. And its onother racial strength point plus to 2 points for AM itself.

Now consider hero/unit enchants, casting while in battle, city enchants cost also. You might get no shards to starting location and what then ? More than enough - i dont think so. In middle game - yes i do, on early stage - nope.

And if i need so many rely on getting shards, spending 3 points of racial strength, taking 2 talents to get mana so all this AM stuff could go id rather just take you know lucky, quick, master scouts and simply go with pioneers To make pioneer takes less time than gather 50 mana especialy with some food management and some food buildings and city enchants, growth can get boosted easy as well.

Yeah AI cant build within AM area, but it can build next to it and flip it later. All what can AM, pioneer also can + city. All those advantages you mentined about axpansion can be taken by pioneer OR AM, thats why i think AM is fine, it does not give any exceptional options only part of pioneers.

Well, I only need some of the things I listed and I have no problem to collect mana, I didn't mean you have to pick everything. When I am saying early on I mean the first 50-100 seasons depending on the map size since the game moves very slow. And yes, the issue is aggravated by the fact that the AI does not know how to use AM strategy or counter it (the AI cannot simply switch an AM when there is no place for a city next to it --> punkd) I don't pick The Decalon anymore because it is far too easy to play with AM and it circumvents the pioneer dilemma without adding another one.

I'd rather say "conveniet", because you dont have to lead your pioneer to building spot, thats the only good part of AM for me personaly. Its not adding dilemas, but you'r loozing 2 points of other racial traits, which could give you more advantages in combat for instance.

Again while we play against AI it does not matter what you pick. If LH would be online then i think id never pick AM, because you know, any non AI player can quickly kick your ass out of territory if he sees there anything worth to take and no AM will prevent them to do it. Even more if you put it then i can simply retake it without wasting my own pioneer or mana.

No ;its a good trait, but not overpowered.

Its not that easy to spam them early on because mana is really in great demand. You need it for combat, for enchantments etc. Other faction who don't have arcane monolith do have other advantages,and these are not draining their mana at each use. So considering that the faction points for that advantage are already steep, I fin that on the whole, the trait is fairly good, but not unbalanced.

Early in the game, it is as expensive to pop a monolith than an outpost. Later, the major advantage is that you don't have to build up up lots of pionner units. It's more of a convenience than a game-breaking thing.

The +1 maintenance woud be too steep, even though I would consider a 0.25 maintenance OK. But then,we don't have any fractional maintenance, do we ? Restricting the use to increase existing borders is fine although this severely restricts the strategic use of that spell,which IMHO would be domageable.

Yves

The upkeep cost goes too far the other way and makes them effectively worthless. Who'd pay two points for a trait that, if you actually use it, would cripple your early game mana?

Monolith is fine. Its one of the traits that is great in game and I'd like it stay that way.

Just give the spell a casting restriction of 20 tiles from your sovereign.

That'll cancel out any global abuse.

I think Arcane Monolith is very strong and agree it makes a massive difference to how easy it is to play the game because of how much map control it gives you.

However I think the main reason it is so strong currently is because the alternative (outposts from settlers) is so incredibly underpowered. 30 pop plus a few turns production, then a few more turns walking there, to get an outpost is vastly more expensive and cumbersome than just paying 50 mana and getting an outpost immediately. I basically never use settlers to make outposts but if I have Arcane Monolith then I spam them (limited by mana) as necessary for map and resource control. The ability to deny settle spots from the AI is one of their best benefits.

As for getting the mana, yes it costs a moderate amount. However it isn't that hard to get to the point where your mana income is +20-30 a turn using Meditation. I guess it helps that I often play with Scrying Pools which are also very strong (and Pariden gets both doesn't it?).

I agree that outposts are too expensive outside of arcane monoliths.