Perturbed about road building

from Elemental Forums

My latest road was built parallel to a wildland border for 11 tiles but inside the wildland!

That renders it essentially useless.  This is a major flaw.

17,483 views 16 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm also annoyed that road building can only be done by heroes. They have more important things to do! :)

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I actually really like the current system. Everyone can use a commander to build roads; The trait is at the very start of the tree and it provides for varied options of how to utilize a commander (city management or troop buff). Being a roadie can be a very useful occupation for a commander :-) In addition, factions with mancer blood can train road-building troops, which is a very nice and unique faction trait.

The only problems are that some faction traits seem much weaker in comparison and have to be re-evaluated, champions should earn xp by building stuff in cities and traversing the land and that the fame mechanic needs to better account for when you need new champions.

I prefer this system over the typical approach where everyone can spam road-building units and roads.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


Dont know how, but playing with some races i had scouts which could build roads. I must say it was most acceptable option for me. I used one scout and have build rods while scouting at the same time, so my main army was folowing scouts road and picking treasures around and establising new forts and cities. Must say it was very comfortable way - i placed roads where i really wanted them to be - not where UI desides to do it.

I dont support ones who tells that then we would make roads on all tiles. I just cant agree we are not that stupid - why to bother with all tiles ??

i think scouts should have road building trait, taht would solve bad UI road system. Because now UI sometimes builds road around the mountain from the left while outposts is like 5 tiles to the right :D

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting petrasvu, reply 3
Dont know how, but playing with some races i had scouts which could build roads.
End of petrasvu's quote

You picked a faction with mancer blood, their pioneers have the road-building trait and you can choose the trait when you design a new unit.

Again, you can always use a commander to build roads. That way they are really worth something beside their buffs on your armies and can actively do something for your cities.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting phazonfreak, reply 4



Quoting petrasvu,
reply 3
Dont know how, but playing with some races i had scouts which could build roads.


You picked a faction with mancer blood, their pioneers have the road-building trait and you can choose the trait when you design a new unit.

Again, you can always use a commander to build roads. That way they are really worth something beside their buffs on your armies and can actively do something for your cities.
End of phazonfreak's quote

Seriously ? For a hero you offering road building career ? Yeah thats probably what he was expecting after i got 400 fame and hired him... to buils few roads, while others participating in legendary fights against dragons... If i was a hero i would fall into depression negative trait imediately :D

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

 I do agree that the roadbuilding logic/calculator needs to be tweaked; I'm seeing the same craziness with some road paths that has been discussed to death.

 

This is more of a 'wish list' thing, but I wouldn't mind seeing roads being tied to resources (specifically materials).  Each road section takes one material.  Also, you start with a path, which gives you a lesser movement bonus, and when you upgrade to stone, you get a greater movement bonus.  Finally, no roads are not automatically placed; players choose where they go.

I'd love to see road sections require units physically on site for construction.  Having Scouts do this sounds like a fine idea, at least for paths.  Upgrades could be handled by Pioneers, Commanders, or whatever other unit might be handy - "Hey Guardians, the Sovereign is sending you out on road detail...".  Militias would be great for this!  The rate of construction I'd recommend would be 1 square per turn per unit.

This opens up some interesting tactical situations, as road crews will need to be wary of attack by creatures and other enemies.  This might be a little too micro management for some of you, but since I've had to do this in most other 4x games I've played, I don't see a problem.

 

Since we seemed to have went away from the 'workforce' model in Elemental, the 'Outpost' method (Sierra game) wouldn't work well, but it was a mechanic I liked.  In that game, factories produced road sections, and when you placed them on the map, a certain amount of population was taken out of the 'workforce pool', possibly limiting worker availablility for other projects.  Plus, in that game, road sections took multiple turns to build, so the workers wouldn't be available again for a bit... the workforce mechanic did make for some interesting management choices in that game, however.

 

Again, more of a wish list/future expansion thing, but I felt the need to share.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting petrasvu, reply 5


Quoting phazonfreak, reply 4


Quoting petrasvu,
reply 3
Dont know how, but playing with some races i had scouts which could build roads.


You picked a faction with mancer blood, their pioneers have the road-building trait and you can choose the trait when you design a new unit.

Again, you can always use a commander to build roads. That way they are really worth something beside their buffs on your armies and can actively do something for your cities.


Seriously ? For a hero you offering road building career ? Yeah thats probably what he was expecting after i got 400 fame and hired him... to buils few roads, while others participating in legendary fights against dragons... If i was a hero i would fall into depression negative trait imediately
End of petrasvu's quote

Yes, I am serious. Since it won't take long to build roads with the champion (no action cost) and afterwards he can join any fight on the map or stay in the city to get drunk in the local inn each season (as it happens currently with useless champions), he should be fine. It comes down to this: You are the Sovereign, he is not. :-)

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

and give roadbuilder a horse, and roads get built 3-4 squares a turn...

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top


I'm annoyed you can build roads for free.....

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd rather open road building Tech that could be attached to units I designed than to have the current system where the roads appear out of the ether in a manner that (far too often) doesn't make sense.  Much like the OP mentioned.

 

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

@bernietime  I like your idea of road building being a 'trait' one can design into a trained unit. I just don't want the automatic road built between settlements (and later outposts) to also disappear.  I would like both.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NorsemanViking, reply 9

I'm annoyed you can build roads for free.....
End of NorsemanViking's quote

I'm fine if they are free.....but they should cost upkeep.

Here's my thoughts: It's been quite some time now since my oringinal road bulding proposal. Doesn't seem like SD is going that route, so I'm going to offer up the next best thing.

  • Have an Engineer unit right from the onset of the game.....or a latest, coming with the Trades tech.
  • The Engineer unit can make or destroy roads on a 1-tile per turn basis.
  • Roads are color coded and owned by the faction that built them. That means that you need a treaty with another faction to get their road movement bonus. (that also means that you cannot utilize enemies roads during war)
  • Roads cost an upkeep of 0.1gp per turn. If cities are an average of 10 tiles away from eachother, that means roads cost an average of 1gp/turn to connect them.
  • Any independantly connecting linkage of roadway connnecting two cities together generates 1gp per turn from trade revenue.
  • (note the above two points encourages meaningful roads to be built...and roads that are strategic have base cost to them)
  • (yes, that also means that if your road is only 7 tiles in length connecting two cities, then you net profit 0.3gp/turn.)
  • Any road within the ZofC of a conquered city converts along with that city.
  • The Engineer unit could have a learned ability to demolish other factions roads.....to be brainstormed....

The overall objective of this proposal is to give complete control to the player in where to build roads, but to make the player very conscious of the fact that roads DO cost upkeep and that spamming roads WILL sink your economy. Obviously, the AI would need to be able to operate under those conditions as well so that they don't sink their economy be accident.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 12
Roads are color coded and owned by the faction that built them. That means that you need a treaty with another faction to get their road movement bonus. (that also means that you cannot utilize enemies roads during war)
Roads cost an upkeep of 0.1gp per turn. If cities are an average of 10 tiles away from eachother, that means roads cost an average of 1gp/turn to connect them.
Any independantly connecting linkage of roadway connnecting two cities together generates 1gp per turn from trade revenue.
End of GFireflyE's quote

Ok, so first of all, this is more or less the system in Civ V, at least as far as I remember. Building roads costs upkeep, so you don't spam them, but linking two cities provides trade gold and the obvious movement benefits, so you are encouraged to link your cities in a meaningful way. This system is a good one to prevent spam yet make roads viable.

Secondly, does this mean roads are not auto-built? If they are, then you may end up still with long pointless roads that cost you a lot of money and are annoying to demolish (if indeed they can be).

Thirdly, what about neutral roads outside of players' ZoC? What happens if you take a city, and the roads between your cities are owned by the other player? Or do roads outside the ZoC not cost upkeep? What about when you sign an economic treaty? Are you LOSING money to have a trade route to your capital?

The idea is nice, but in my honest opinion the Civ V model of roads would still work pretty well in this game... I hate saying something like that, but the way roads worked in Civ V was intuitive and balanced.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting animageous, reply 13



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 12
Roads are color coded and owned by the faction that built them. That means that you need a treaty with another faction to get their road movement bonus. (that also means that you cannot utilize enemies roads during war)
Roads cost an upkeep of 0.1gp per turn. If cities are an average of 10 tiles away from eachother, that means roads cost an average of 1gp/turn to connect them.
Any independantly connecting linkage of roadway connnecting two cities together generates 1gp per turn from trade revenue.


Ok, so first of all, this is more or less the system in Civ V, at least as far as I remember. Building roads costs upkeep, so you don't spam them, but linking two cities provides trade gold and the obvious movement benefits, so you are encouraged to link your cities in a meaningful way. This system is a good one to prevent spam yet make roads viable.

Secondly, does this mean roads are not auto-built? If they are, then you may end up still with long pointless roads that cost you a lot of money and are annoying to demolish (if indeed they can be).

Thirdly, what about neutral roads outside of players' ZoC? What happens if you take a city, and the roads between your cities are owned by the other player? Or do roads outside the ZoC not cost upkeep? What about when you sign an economic treaty? Are you LOSING money to have a trade route to your capital?

The idea is nice, but in my honest opinion the Civ V model of roads would still work pretty well in this game... I hate saying something like that, but the way roads worked in Civ V was intuitive and balanced.
End of animageous's quote

Never played civ V so I cannot say or compare.

Auto-roading could still be done as theoretically they do connect to cities as soon as Trade tech is obtained. I think it would be just fine if auto-roading didn't happen though. Really, it's the meaningful road building concept that is meant to keep road spamming in line.

Roads that you built are yours. Roads that your opponent built are his. If you conquer a city, all roads within its ZofC become yours. Any roads still outside of ZofC would still be his. This is why I mentioned that the Engineer unit should probably have a demolish ability so that you can take over or rebuild road paths that may be incomplete.

Economic treaties would be separate from road economy. You only gain the 1gp per two cities of your city connections. Interacting with AI would still require treaties and the treaty amounts should be balanced such that they can accomadate some road fees.

To wrap up, never played with civ V roads. I have played with all the predassessors though and the aspect of civ road building in general that I really did not like was their ability to be spammed like crazy such that every tile eventually got roads and rails. There was no upkeep. There was no moderation. There was no balance.

 

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top


So, I was looking through the files and stumbled across RoadLevelDefs.xml in the data\English dir...

File is as follows:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" standalone="yes"?>
<RoadLevelDefs>

  <DataChecksum NoParse="1">
    <Ignore>DisplayName</Ignore>
    <Translate>DisplayName</Translate>
  </DataChecksum>

  <RoadLevelDef InternalName="RoadLevel_Trail">
    <DisplayName>Trail</DisplayName>
    <RoadLevel>0</RoadLevel>
 <!-- <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Tracks.dds</Texture> -->
    <!-- <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Path.dds</Texture> -->
    <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Dirt.png</Texture>
    <TradeMultiplier>1.1</TradeMultiplier>
    <CityTileMultiplierBonus>0.0</CityTileMultiplierBonus>
    <CyclesToReachLevel>0</CyclesToReachLevel>
  </RoadLevelDef>
  <RoadLevelDef InternalName="RoadLevel_Path">
    <DisplayName>Path</DisplayName>
    <RoadLevel>1</RoadLevel>
 <!-- <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Path.dds</Texture> -->
    <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Dirt.png</Texture>
    <TradeMultiplier>1.15</TradeMultiplier>
    <CityTileMultiplierBonus>0.1</CityTileMultiplierBonus>
    <CyclesToReachLevel>20</CyclesToReachLevel>
  </RoadLevelDef>
  <RoadLevelDef InternalName="RoadLevel_Road">
    <DisplayName>Road</DisplayName>
    <RoadLevel>2</RoadLevel>
 <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles_Dirt.png</Texture>
    <TradeMultiplier>1.2</TradeMultiplier>
    <CityTileMultiplierBonus>0.2</CityTileMultiplierBonus>
    <CyclesToReachLevel>50</CyclesToReachLevel>
  </RoadLevelDef>
  <RoadLevelDef InternalName="RoadLevel_Highway">
    <DisplayName>Highway</DisplayName>
    <RoadLevel>3</RoadLevel>
    <Texture>Gfx/Roads/Road_Tiles.png</Texture>
    <TradeMultiplier>1.25</TradeMultiplier>
    <CityTileMultiplierBonus>0.3</CityTileMultiplierBonus>
    <CyclesToReachLevel>100</CyclesToReachLevel>
  </RoadLevelDef>
</RoadLevelDefs>

 

Question for the modders out there: Can this be switched on in some fashion to give us (and the AI) the ability to upgrade our roads as the game progresses???

This appears to be VERY interesting.....but I'm no programmer....

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

As I understand it, RoadLevelDefs.xml is for the caravans only.  The more trips caravans make the higher the road level for trade profit only.

 

My ideas for roads.  I dusted off MoM and rediscovered their engineers.  Not every race gets them (but then if you conquer a race that build engineers, you can build that engineer).  I don't think roads cost maintenance, they certainly don't cost to build.  But they take LOTS of time to build.

I do think more than Mancers and Commanders should get road building, but not everybody.  I think road building should take many turns to happen and be different depending on terrain.  If a 2nd road builder shows up it can go twice as fast - and that's where stacking ends, with 2.

There needs to be a mechanic to be able to build an engineer if you conquer a city of a race that has road building.  (Heck, cities should remain the race they were founded as anyway, but that is OT for this thread.)