Wail needs to be nerfed

I believe the solution here is don't get close to an Advent terran world with a large fleet.  Either that or nuke them with novas.  I'm not saying those are good solutions, but they work.

Personally, if you are TEC against an Advent rebel(It will take adjustment to get used to). You should have a Novalith to bombard his planets before you actually go to attack him. Wail is a huge investment into the harmony tree meaning his fleet is small and cannot take yours or try to stop you while you get this novalith cannon up and operational.

However, I will give you some leverage here. Wail is a huge pain in the ass. It just like red button, needs a CLEAR visual way to show that both have said fleet wiping abilities. Such as a glowing aura of red/purple for red button/wail. Yeah losing your fleet sucks, but wail is actually avoidable in almost all cases for the TEC.

If you are looking for more solutions Armistice combined with your fleet treading across "No mans land" is also a viable way of reaching his temples of communion. Assuming his High Pop world does not have another high population world next to it.

Do keep in mind that you can rebuild your fleet (and make it stronger) before he would have a chance to try it again. Plus a lot of income is lost when it is used and the planet is vulnerable. Its a strong weapon with a high cost. It doesn't need a nerf.

Im someone who is against nerfing Wail, but even I think the actual cost from the enemy is far worse than the actual cost of losing a planet. Because losing a fleet does require time, as does building up a population but that is assuming it is one world. Alot of income comes from the trade ports more than the actual planet population. It is a big sacrifice yes, but actually killing a while fleet of enemies is worth much more than losing the planet.

We can be thankful that at least they do lose something for using wail.

So your telling me in a multi game when yur 3 hours in ... that your going to rebuild your fleet? I was building novas.. but regardless, there is no reason i push of a button should kill an ENTIRE fleet in a gravity well. This ability was reserved for the TEC starbase... not a 7 civic labs ability. 

BTW, it was on an ASTEROID, i wasnt even on a Terran

Mayal, for what you said, i do agree, but that often is not the case in multi games. Novas are usually a game ender. Wail hardly costs anything compared to RB or novas. It no, it does not cost alot. Its clearly overpowered and should be 1/4 of what it is 

When playing against an enemy Advent Rebel, you should be training your Novas on any high pop planets.  Also, it doesn't matter what the population of your planet is, just their planet.  If you meant to say that they used it from an asteroid, they either used multiple planets at once or it bugged because an Asteroid will only ever deal at maximum 400 damage which isn't enough to kill anything aside from your SC.

And despite what you may think about Novas, Bilun computed just how much of an economic impact they can have on an enemy and even with four, the result is staggering.

And it doesn't really matter what the cost of Wail is.  Novas are far more useful than Wail.  Sacrifice a planet to deal damage or build an object that can put a permanent dent in the enemy economy with stupidly long debuffs and be used tactically when needed.  Novas are clearly better.  Just observe a no-man's land policy or nuke their planet first.  Neither is hard for the TEC.

You either don't understand how the ability works (your fault), you failed to target your Novas effectively (your fault), or it bugged (not your fault).

 I'm leaning towards the first two.

It's balanced.  The entire point of Wail is that it's supposed to make your hesistant to commit your entire fleet to attacking advent rebel worlds without preparing in advance.

What do I mean by preparing?  Be aware of which worlds can wail the gravity wells you need to move through to attack the world you want(including the well of the planet you want to take).  if you're attacking a border world chances are there are only 2-4 such world no more then 2 of which have significant population.  Thos two worlds need to have their populations reduced before you attack the world you want(use novaliths or lightly escorted suicide mission siege frigates).  Kill off the populations of the worlds adjacent to the world you want to take and wail is neutered.

Alternatively you could try to destroy the temples of communion at the planets adjacent to the one you want to take.

Another option is to try knocking out temples of harmony- Wail becomes unusable if you know the advent player under 7 temples of harmony.

The point is once the advent rebel player has been given time to research wail(which is not easy mind you as it requires 7 temples of harmony, which is deeper into the harmony tree then any advent player will go before the super late game) and build up populations on his worlds, you're going to need to scout ahead and prepare for assaults rather then just creating a kill fleet and attempting a frontal assault.

The best counter is of course to take planets before they build up a ton of population or before the advent rebel researches Wail- you have had plenty of time to end the game by that point most games.

Alternatively as TEC you could try to get him to blow wail on a smaller fleet- ocne he wails on most sizes of planets that planet won't have another full strength wail for the next 25-40 minutes depending on planet type & research.  TEC economy is strong enough that you should be able to recoup from the losses long before that provided you don't get your entire fleet killed by wail.

When it coems down to it, if you commited your entire fleet to attacking a wail-defended gravity well late enough in the game that the advent rebel player has wail and you made no preparations to deal with wail in advance it was you mistake- if you fleet had not gotten mulched then wail wound't really fufill it's purpose(as that is basically the worst thing you could have done).

Besides, while the range and aoe is larger, it's a hell of a lot easier to anticipate and counter then red button.

Wail may be slightly too strong if the Advent player is sitting in a choke point with its capitals (especially carriers) and wail. It's a really hard-to-overcome obstacle and may lead to a fleet loss the Advent player can exploit massively.

On the other hand, TEC's economic advantage also is quite extreme. Wail probably does not put _enough_ of a dent into a TEC player's fleets on larger maps to even partly offset a TEC player's stronger economy and ship production capability. In general, a TEC player starting in a different star system than a single Advent opponent on a larger map with multiple star systems will be too rich and too capable of striking on a broad front while replacing entire fleets that "failed" for the Advent to win, wail or not.

Wail is strong, but it does not scale and it does not stack much with other technologies. TEC's economy does.

No it does not need a nerf whatsoever, its your fault that you allowed that planet to level up and then blindly parked your fleet in the adjacent grav well......

This is the crime I committed. You split two fleet. One was on my desert planet, one on my asteroid. Both planets connect to my Terran. I used the ability on the Terran which has 280 full population. Wail of the Sacrificed will damage all adjacent gravity well, not in the gravity well. The ability is situational. 

Plus it won't destroy titan or capital ships. 

Em i the only one who thinks this is funny  copter..another victim of wail who probably rage quit after the incident. 

Love the people who will defend wail, but hate on RB.

Yeah, Wail loses you income. RB loses you raw resources. Both have the primary counter of either scouting and avoiding, or skimming small parts of a fleet past the range of the ability, or starting a distraction attack to try and force a wail/RB.

At least with RB there is a tiny indication it is coming. Wail? Nothing, and every single planet you own is able to do it. Enduring devotion+wail = death to so many.

Tiny indication being a 1 secon thing that only helps you if you're TEC with a level 6 Akkan. The best option with BRB is to expect all Argonevs to have them and don't send ships into range.

Similarly, if there's an Advent Rebel, scout his temples, 7 or 8 harmony in there? Expect Wail.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Regardless, the current complaints about BRB come from the range boost it got.

The best strategy to stop wailing is thinking ahead. An enemy cannot use it efficiently if you deny him the population to do it. So If you play versus Advent Rebels you try to play aggressively and raid his planets, make sure the border between you and the enemy shifts a lot, that already helps. If you collect a large fleet and let it sit on it's goonies it'll get busted.

Red button got a totally unnessecary buff.

Wail didn't

There is a reason to our madness.

Im sorry but there is no way an asteroid took out your whole fleet.

I'm sensing a massive amount of bias in everything you say.

You say such a thing was reserved to the TEC, are you just angry that someone else can do the same now?

You complain that it takes 7 civic labs to get Wail, but you only need 3 military labs for an Argonev, and 5 for the BRB.

Then you say it was an asteroid, which can only do 400 wail damage to every ship, mitigated by armor, so unless you were attacking him with an army of scout frigates, your fleet should have survived with minimal damage.

Then you complain Wail does not cost anything. It costs 7 civic stations, as well as the cost of the upgrade itself, as well as the cost of the temple of communion. Then it costs you a planet's worth of income, and temporarily makes you lose control of said planet. All upgrades done to this planet are lost too, in the case of a terran planet, that's four planetary development upgrades, three logistics upgrades, three fortifications upgrades, three tactical upgrades and two exploration upgrades. Then you actually need to wait for the population to build up again to be able to use Wail.

So basically:

You like TEC, it's ok for TEC to have this but not okay for Advent to have this because you like the TEC and that's reason enough for the whole world to agree.

Thats pretty much the jist of it as far as I can tell Pat, and I couldnt agree with you more.

The way I see it there are two groups of people with regard to the Wail ability. There are those smart players who know what the Advent Rebels can do and in turn expect it and counter the ability, and defend against Wail's nerfing, and then there are those very few inexperienced players that, when they are Wailed for the first time, think that they should come onto the Forums and rant and rave about how terrible this ability is.

I stand among those who say that Wail should not be nerfed. Yes, it has the potential to do huge damage to the fleet of an enemy, but only in very specific circumstances (planet with high population, big enemy fleet happens to be just sitting at adjacent planet).

It also comes at a cost to the player that uses it. The planet, if there is no starbase with the Enduring Devotion upgrade, is then lost and must be recolonized and the population must slowly come back and all of the upgrades save the exploration must be researched again. If there is a starbase with such upgrade bought, then the population must be worked up slowly and the using Wail player loses a sizable amount of income.

I think that this ability is really cool and should NOT be nerfed. It makes the Advent Rebels unique as a faction. If the devs count the people for and against Wail, then they will find that there are actually very few people who think that Wail needs a nerf. These people, while they are few in number, appear numerous on the forums because all of them are angry and so write posts such as this one to try to yell the devs into nerfing Wail. Most of the community thinks that nerfing Wail would be a mistake, and I stand with them. I encourage the devs not to give in to these angry few and to instead side with the majority of the community and keep Wail as it is.

He was probably at an asteroid, not wailed by one,  and doesn't quite realize how wail works.

I'd sooner nerf Novalith's than Wail, I have no problems with it except the "arg, my fleet!" moments. But thats why I have factories and an economy.

Maybe he doesn't understand that Wail hits the gravity wells adjacent to the sacrificed world rather then the world it's self...perhaps he was attacking ana steroid adjacent to a terran/desert world?

yep, next to Terran with 280 population.

It's not overpowered.

1) you need ice, desert, or terran to do a meaningful amount of damage.

2) those planets in 1) needed decent amount of population, which is growing at very slow pace.

3) the ability is situational, more of a static defense, and really depends on the map.

4) can be countered with proper scouting or Novalith

5) the sacrifice is not cheap (research, planet upgrades lost, income sacrificed, population reset to 0)

6) the general awareness of this ability will increase among players and it will become increasingly difficult to trap them. 

QED?