Sarudak Sarudak

[Suggestion] No more + initiative weapons

[Suggestion] No more + initiative weapons

So true story. I tried working at my computer, performing various household tasks and running across the room while holding a sharp knife and shockingly it did not seem to improve the speed at which I could accomplish ANY of these tasks! (Unless I was cutting something in which case it was very helpful)

My point is weapons (unless they are magical artifacts) that improve initiative (make you move and act faster) are confusing and counter intuitive. They make no sense whatsoever. This has been a problem since WoM when daggers gave you more actions. 

The solution is simple. Buff all units initiative and make items only have the option to lower initiative. You keep largely the same mechanics but it doesn't lead to confusing results like a mage being faster with a knife in his hands than with his hands empty.

64,471 views 37 replies
Reply #26 Top

Screen dirt = 1.

We actually call them "fatigue points" in UI design.

The typical weapon in FE has no initiative modifier.  

Reply #27 Top
Quoting Frogboy, reply 26

Screen dirt = 1.

End of Frogboy's quote

I really don't understand what you're saying.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26

We actually call them "fatigue points" in UI design.

End of Frogboy's quote

Good to know.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26

The typical weapon in FE has no initiative modifier.

End of Frogboy's quote

You say that but I don't believe it. Now I'm operating off of memory here but if we look at the weapons.

No Modifier : Club, Spears, Stave (?), One handed Axes

+ Modifier : Knives, Swords

- Modifier : Heavy Blunt, 2 Handed Axes, All Magic staffs

If you did an actual count I would be that more weapons have initiative modifiers than not. That or it's extremely close.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 27
[1] No Modifier : Club, Spears, Stave (?), One handed Axes

[2] + Modifier : Knives, Swords

[3] - Modifier : Heavy Blunt, 2 Handed Axes, All Magic staffs
End of Sarudak's quote

So why not "shifting" the modifier:

[1] - Modifier : Club, Spears, Staves (?), One handed Axes

[2] No Modifier : Knives, Swords

[3] - - Modifier : Heavy Blunt, 2 Handed Axes, All Magic staffs

Now we have the same differences between the three groups of weapons and no + modifier. You would just have to give + modifier to all created units (ie. increase basic initiative). Now we have the same effect and no weapons that increase initiative. (Or more likely I'm missing something.)

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Gandhialf, reply 28


So why not "shifting" the modifier:

[1] - Modifier : Club, Spears, Staves (?), One handed Axes

[2] No Modifier : Knives, Swords

[3] - - Modifier : Heavy Blunt, 2 Handed Axes, All Magic staffs
End of Gandhialf's quote

 

Welcome to the thread and that's basically exactly what I'm suggesting.

Reply #30 Top

Hi! :)

Edit: I see that you've suggested the very same thing. I'm sorry I didn't read carefully :rolleyes:  (A minute after posting I edited my previous post to explain why I want to "shift" initiative, still similar to your idea, isn't it?).

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Lonemessiah, reply 10
Basically actions could dynamically reduce your initiative for the following round.

For example:

Moving during a turn cost 5 initiative

Casting a spell could cost spell level squared (maybe modified by intelligence)

Attacking costs the rating of the weapon (daggers would be low, two handed weapons would be high)

Special actions could also have a cost attached to them

Leaving a ZoC during combat could also carry a bonus 5 point in addition to the 5 for moving.

 

So if you have you have a character who has an initiative of 30 who leaves a ZoC to attack another enemy with a sword (initiative rating 8) he would then only have an initiative of 30-5(move)-5(leave ZoC)-8(attack with sword)=12 to decide when he next gets to move.

This would then make a defensive line much more viable, since when the enemy does attack you will have a massive initiative advantage on the following rounds to counter. Also it would reduce kiting etc.

 

Unfortunately this would require a re-write of a lot of the combat mechanics though.

 
End of Lonemessiah's quote

 

This is the cleanest solution and would open the door to a lot more flexibility in what the tactical system could do...

+1

 

OP solution is good, too.

 

Of course, Frogboy, whatever's copacetic to the solution and your system. The problem exists, and you're aware of it.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting CHiZZoPs, reply 31

Quoting Lonemessiah, reply 10Basically actions could dynamically reduce your initiative for the following round.



 

 

This is the cleanest solution and would open the door to a lot more flexibility in what the tactical system could do...

+1

 

OP solution is good, too.
End of CHiZZoPs's quote

 

Indeed, this would make the system much more intuitive.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Lonemessiah, reply 10
Basically actions could dynamically reduce your initiative for the following round.

For example:

Moving during a turn cost 5 initiative

Casting a spell could cost spell level squared (maybe modified by intelligence) [...]
End of Lonemessiah's quote

So initiative modifies how frequently a unit can take action, and type of action taken modifies (decreases) initiative. This basically means that if you've done something hard you have to rest.

Quoting DarkGaldred, reply 32
Indeed, this would make the system much more intuitive.
End of DarkGaldred's quote

I agree. It's intuitive enough, at least for me.

Reply #34 Top


@Frogboy Are we playing a different version?

More than Half of the available weapons currently have an initiative modifier. Let's go through the list:

The Following Weapons have no initiative modifier (4):

One Handed Clubs, Spears, One Handed Axes, Two Handed Swords

The Following Weapons have negative initiative modifiers(5):

Bows, Wands, One handed Hammers, Two Handed Hammers, Two handed Axes

The Following Weapons have positive initiative modifiers(3):

Daggers, One handed Swords, Staves

These modifiers can range anywhere from -6 to +6. For bows there is no issue, because they are all -6 and thus if you want to inflict ranged damage there is your basic modifier, but for melee things can get strange. I mean at what point in time is using a maul better than a two-handed sword? How high does my character's strength, and how low do the modifiers from encumbrance and armor have to be before using one or the other is a more viable option?

Things get even more complicated when you toss in things like discipline, champion's greaves and elemental damage items. Now at what level and what initiative modifier and what strength rating does it become more beneficial to use the lightning hammer over the hunter's sword?

I'm all for variety and options but not when they make me solve three and four step algebraic equations to determine the effectiveness of my designs.

 

 

Reply #35 Top

Quoting Lonemessiah, reply 10
Basically actions could dynamically reduce your initiative for the following round.

For example:

Moving during a turn cost 5 initiative

Casting a spell could cost spell level squared (maybe modified by intelligence)

Attacking costs the rating of the weapon (daggers would be low, two handed weapons would be high)

Special actions could also have a cost attached to them

Leaving a ZoC during combat could also carry a bonus 5 point in addition to the 5 for moving.

 

So if you have you have a character who has an initiative of 30 who leaves a ZoC to attack another enemy with a sword (initiative rating 8) he would then only have an initiative of 30-5(move)-5(leave ZoC)-8(attack with sword)=12 to decide when he next gets to move.

This would then make a defensive line much more viable, since when the enemy does attack you will have a massive initiative advantage on the following rounds to counter. Also it would reduce kiting etc.

 

Unfortunately this would require a re-write of a lot of the combat mechanics though.

 
End of Lonemessiah's quote

That's the way fallout and xcom work.

And I don't think they can implement it now. But with the actual system they could mimic that : with modifiers. Each action would give you "-1 init" or "-2 init" (cumulatives) with a min of 1 in init. Add a "recover" action, next to "rest" in tactical combat, that would let the unit get rid of the init modifiers (grey the recover action if the unit do anything). The recover action end the unit's turn.

 

Reply #36 Top

I think there are two issues.  1) is understanding what initiative does easily for weapons and why it should exist, and 2) is not letting initiative affect actions that it shouldn't such as spell casting and movement.

Most games end up solving 1), this fast/slow powerful/weak weapon problem and all the math related to it, by adding a simple derived stat called damage per second.  Of course, in this game, we could call it DPT, damage per turn, and a turn being defined as 20 initiative points.

For example, a dagger with 6 damage and +6 initiative would have a DPT of 7.8 (6 damage * (26/20) attacks per turn), a shortsword with 7 damage and a +3 initiative would have a DPT of 8.05 (7 damage * (23/20) attacks per turn), and so forth.  It's the calculation we try to do in our head but we never get down quite as well as the computer can figure it out.

This stat would allow the user to quickly tell from the interface if one weapon is better than another in terms of raw damage potential.  DPT should include effects of accessories, enchantments, strength, and be balanced so that fast weapons generally had less damage because attacking more frequently is an advantage in itself.  So maybe the necklace of ice would actually give +3 DPT and would scale to the faster or higher initiative weapons appropriately.

Magic items should also rarely affect initiative directly, as this can upset the DPT balance.  Swinging a bit faster with a maul is so much better than swinging a bit faster with a dagger.  Those items should be converted to +% to initiative after weapon modifiers.

Lastly, heavy armor should be -% to initiative after weapon modifiers.  Heavy armor shouldn't be coupled with daggers; it doesn't make thematic sense.

Alongside DPT, there should be a field or two that displays secondary stats such critical hit chance and multiplier, armor piercing, proc abilities, etc.  Some weapons will be lower DPT, but have higher crit or more amor piercing, or ranged, and that's the trade off.


On 2), I agree with a lot of the above, but let's keep it simple: magic should cost 20, and movement should cost 20.  Attacking with a weapon would be the only thing modified by weapon initiative.  It would be easy to see 3 initiative stats, too

That would end kiting, because a unit who moved backwards can almost always be chased at the same speed unless the backward moving unit had more total movement (which shouldn't be as much of a problem now).  You could no longer kite someone just because you had a higher initiative.

Thus initiative would only play into DPT but not into spells cast per turn or quick running speeds (which really are the # of squares in movement).

Anyway, I'm mostly rehashing, but hopefully the above gives some simplicity in UI if not in description.

Reply #37 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 8
I was thinking that staves should reduce Initiative and daggers should not effect Initiative at all. The reason to hold a staff would be to benefit from a bonus to spell damage, spell mastery, and spell resistance. This would add some nice differentiation choices to mages. 
End of seanw3's quote

 

 

Great idea!

Additionally: If there were more multi-turn charging spells in the game (beyond the 1 turn versions) staves could also reduce the turns it takes to cast a spell.