Bye bye WinCustomize

Always funny how people are always so willing to spend the money of others. You whine about having to "empty your wallet" (only if your wallet is extremely thin), but you have no problem expecting them to empty their wallets with free, unlimited bandwidth. The selfishness of some people is amazing.

l8r

Chill... Do not judge 'till the system is in place.

listen to crae...

I'm trying to find the post that even implies that people would have to pay just to start using the site.

Every post *I* have written has talked about the need to limit those who are downloading a LOT of stuff, not the casual user. The problem with bandwidth isn't the guy who visits and donwloads a half dozen skins on occasion. The problem is the guy with the cable modem with the downloading queing that is downloading 25+ megs in a session.

But I have to agree with Tarkus, I find it kind of ironic how some people are pretty free with other people's money.

I think Snowman concludes all this from the news post up on the front page.

From the news post:
We will be implementing a 5 megabyte per month limit on those who aren't in the database to help decrease bandwidth use.

This needs to be defined a bit better. First off, by database, do you mean registered users on this site, or those who have purchased things from Stardock/WinCusto? Secondly, what if a user wants unlimited (or increased) download ability, but doesn't want to purchase something from Stardock/WinCusto, then what? Can they pay a monthly or yearly fee for access just to this site? Finally, I've seen lots of talk about how WinCusto isn't paying its own bills. On one hand, it seems every large skin site has this problem, but on the other hand I see a bit of "number" confusion. The confusion is this: does Stardock factor in the ODN, WindowBlinds, and all other Stardock product sales made due to this site? Surely many people find out about Stardock & its products due to this site; I see no reason why those sales shouldn't be worked into the monthly revenue from this site. If you look at it this way, I would assume this site is in fact profitable.

I agree something needs to be done to conserve on bandwidth, I just think it is just very important to keep the community fully informed as to what is going on.

Keep up the good work,
gorman

Good questions Gorman.

Consider this:

1) If having a skin site were a good marketing vehicle, then every application would have its own skin site. NeXTStart and Hoverdesk, for instance, rely on third party sites. If WinCustomize ceased to exist, SD could just point to the other skin sites.

2) Even if SD didn't point to other skin sites, it could simply have a database of say 35 "good" skins/themes that users could get and then sell skin packs for people who wanted more. Those who are really into it would be able to find other good skin sites such as DA.

3) As TaST correctly pointed out, since the solution would only affect a tiny portion (5%) of the user base, why discuss it at all? Mainly to get ideas, the idea to have a monthly download limit was actually made by users, not us. We simply have to find a mechanism in which those who download many megs of stuff per month are restricted if they haven't supported the site or the software.

4) We'd rather avoid selling a "pay $10 and get a membership". We'd rather stay with the user getting something in return such as a shirt or a skin browser or something. The skin browser will probably become the preferred way to become a premium member down the line. Though obviously, buying the programs in particular are what matter.

5) Any such mechanism would be aimed at the guy whose downloading fractional gigabytes of WindowBlinds or DesktopX themes that hasn't registered either one. If a guy has downloaded 100 megs of WB skins but hasn't registered it, the site has long since stopped being any sort of marketing mechanism and is just a loss leader.

1) Most companies don't have the resources to have their own skin site. However, I would assume that Hoverdesk & such do make a good # of sales due to people coming to their site from here. I would assume the ODN sales from this site produce a good bit of revenue.

2) Yep, I know that.

3) Only 5%? Are you referring to users who download more then 5mb per month & haven't purchased something from Stardock/WinCusto? I find it hard to believe its that low of a percent.

4) Makes sense.

5) Okay, but this site isn't suppose to be a marketing mechanism. This is suppose to be a community site, isn't it? In that case, if a member of the community wants to come here & download Winamp skins and wallpapers, what are they going to do when they can only get 5mb worth of skins per month? Maybe they aren't interested or can't afford any Stardock products. Sure, you aren't making any money off of them anyway ... but this is a community site, right? I can fully understand download caps for those who aren't in the DB for Stardock related categories - not having something like this is almost like promoting pirating of your own programs. I'm just not clear on the other categories nor the "community" aspect of this site as a whole.

What I'm most interested in, and I realize this is confidential information, is how many sales were made due to this site.

Finally, in a news post a few days back, I read something about how WinCustomize was seperate from Stardock & how Stardock gave WinCusto grants each month. Well, WinCusto is certainly part of Stardock - there are many, many links to this site on stardock.com; to me its just Stardock's skin site. Thus, this site is a business expense that seems very worthwhile to me. If you look at it that way, I don't see why any company would deny the site the resources it needs to satisfy its own customers (those who have purchased ODN, etc & are looking for skins).

-gorman

Snowman....if you are still here...don't pre-judge...and certainly don't 'bugger-off'[Aussie slang] at the hint of change....it's not intended to impact on reasonable people, just the very small few who are creating problems for the many...

Brad mentioned in another thread that the problem is mainly people who come here with their cable modem and then proceed to download 50 plus megs of stuff in a sitting.

So the system that is gonna be put in place will initially target that. I think the 5 megs per month limit is more of a worst case scenario.

I really don't think this site has much impact either way on Stardock's app sales. If they weren't downloading the skins from here, they'd just get them at customize or los or da.

The way the site was launched is that Stardock gave it a grant to of X per month. In June, after Deskmod went down, the traffic here went way beyond what X per month could handle. So Stardock shared some of its own bandwidth Y. So now WC uses X+Y per month. By this Winter, the site needs to either get back to using X or find a way to pay for X+Y. Selling CDs and shirts and the like aren't even coming close to it. So the current thinking is to get the site back to using just X bandwidth per month.

So if you want to get to X you either have the site be very slow for all users or have the site remain fast but have fewer downloads. One way to limit downloads would be to target those people who are using more than their fair share of bandwidth and haven't contributed to the site. Seems fair to me.

Again though, you mention cds & shirts, but you don't factor in the ODN, etc. sales made due to this site. Also, you need to figure that many people here are customers of yours, and this basically comes as an extra feature to them. If you look at it that way, this site should have all the bandwidth it needs to satisfy your customers.

-gorman

hey Snowman - it's still free... don't leave...

Gorman,

>> Also, you need to figure that many people here are customers of yours, and this basically comes as an extra feature to them. <<

That'll be figured in. If someone has purchased ODN or a Stardock app, then they're in the SD "database" and won't be affected by the download limit, if I'm reading it correctly.

So, in *that* light, this site will continue to provide the bandwidth to all SD customers. It will just no longer cater without limits to those who have not contributed monetarily either to WinCustomize or Stardock. Considering who's footing the bill, I believe that's reasonable.

Snowman,

How do you expect WC to offer what it does not have! It has given what it can, but there is nothing left. Bandwidth is expensive and not limitless, so a small minority will have to be limited so the vast majority of this "community site" can still enjoy it. Life is full of limits, hope you'll reconsider...

I understand that, but regardless, as more and more people come, even with that limit it will become slower. So my point is, this is a service to the paying customers, and more bandwidth will be needed sooner rather then later even if WinCusto isn't profitable itself. I honestly believe that the sales that come in from WinCusto for ODN, etc. plus the tshirts & such make this site currently profitable. I could be wrong though, but I've played with the numbers, and I don't think I am.

-gorman

Gorman,

Brad (FrogBoy) has stated that the site is certainly *not* profitable in and of itself.

I'm sure if the XP revolution is accompanied by a huge increase in sales for Stardock (which is entirely possible), the grant of bandwidth to WC will rise in accordance. But the traffic that is being curtailed is for people coming to the site to take and take with nothing to give back. That traffic will likely soon rise as well.

To keep the site from slowing to a crawl, something has to be done. This plan seems to be workable and make sense. Do you have a better idea?

The only problem I have is that not everyone is here to download Stardock related material. Some users simply don't want to or can't buy ODN, etc. Thus, these members of the community are looked down upon & only can download so much. Basically, as I see it, it takes a lot of the "community" aspect away from the site. Trust me, I understand this might have to be done, and it may very well be the best idea.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. WinCustomize itself sells CDs and T-Shirts, and no, based upon that, the site is _not_ profitable. I know this for a fact. However, if you add in the sales for ODN, etc. made due to this site, I believe it is in fact profitable. As I've said, I could be wrong.

To sum it up, CDs + shirts does not equal profitably. However, CDs + shirts + sales of Stardock created products made due to this site does equal profitability.

Please take no offense to this, I'm just trying to bring some facts to light so that maybe Snowman and others will feel comfortable returning here. I firmly believe that if people know the full situation they will be happy to be a member here. So, with that in mind, I'm asking the questions.

However, my main point(s) seems to go unanswered.

-gorman

i definely do agree to some limits. those one hit wonders could just be like 5% but uses up to 80% of bandwidth.

btw site seems much more snappier now.

Hey, waitaminute guys...
As far as I know there is nowhere question of imposing a limit on non-paying customers. The reference to the "database" simply means registered members. And registration is free.
In other words, only anonymous users will be limited at this point. Unless I got this all wrong, but that's what I think I understood.

Brad stated on the news comments that the "database" means anyone who has paid.

-gorman

OK, I just saw his comment saying it's "the later"...
Hum... hum... hum...
/me having a conscience case here...

This theoretically means indeed that WC is charging for content.

OK, I'll have to wait and see how this is really implemented. Right now, I must say that I don't agree with the idea. I'll have to debate this with my conscience...

Last thought before I go to bed. Again, I'm bringing up every point I can so that when the system launches it can be as perfect as possible.

As paxx said, WC is basically charging for content. This is fine, however, we have to look at who created the content. The users. This is why I never thought charging for downloads on a skin site would work; mainly because it isn't fair to the users. Unless the users who upload get some sort of a cut, they are kind of getting screwed over. Even worse, imagine this: a user uploads a Winamp skin, then they go to try & download their own skin & find they can't because they've already downloaded 5MB. That would turn nasty. I'm sure you've thought of this, and I know you think this is the best idea, but I'm really starting to think it is not.

-gorman

Hmmm. Ever belonged to a club or hobby association? Members provide the content, atmoshpere and do all the administration, yet pay dues to belong and cover the club's expenses.

Some members come for the news, some for the company, and some for just the snacks, but everyone pays the same dues. They often sell t-shirts, stickers, hold contests (with entry fees) to boost the coffers.

Taken in that context, what's the difference between this site and a hobbyist club? We gather, share, converse, and form a community. You guys toss the word community around as if that means that *anyone* should have unlimited access to the group's resources. To use the club analogy again, if you ran a club, and week after week, hundreds of non-dues paying visitors took all the goodies you'd provided, grabbed all the freebies and split without adding anything to the group or the experience, how long do you think it would be until you made it a "private" club?

There are alternatives.
Limit daily download for everyone, not in Megs, but in number. Something like a limit of 5 skins per day.
Heck, why not even take advantage of the status system implemented here? 5 skins per class level. For example:
Guest: no go. Rgister to download.
Citizens: 5 skins per day
Apprentice: 10 skins per day
Journeymen: 15 skins er day
etc.

Just an idea, and it doesn't involve payment, it involves participation and contribution, which is fair.
My 2 cents.