Kenata's working on Dual Wield. How should it work?

from Elemental Forums

OK, so Kenata has been able to get the game models to show a character wielding two weapons.

Now Ajay here looks like he is dual wielding swords, and as far as the player is concerned he is. The truth is that his off hand dagger is really a cleverly disguised shield. By doing it this way, he gets one attack and the animation is passable. Now, because this off hand weapon is basically a shield and still a GameItemType, you are free to do all sorts of fun little game modifiers. You can add attack bonus, special abilities, etc. However, since really most of you seem to just want some kind of "dual strike", you can just add a small attack bonus to give the effect of your offhand weapon adding to the main hand. My current test off hand weapon gives a 30% attack bonus and a 30% dodge bonus, but reduces armor by 30%. This way, the combination scales based on the main hand weapon and gives this little off hander the ability to be mixed and matched.
End of quote

So, now would be a good time to figure out how dual wield should work ingame.

Applying stat bonuses is the easy part.  What should they be?

I'm thinking a +1 to Speed (to reflect the extra attack opportunities), along with some other minor bonuses to accuracy, dodge, and maybe weapon strength.

 

Additionally, some special weapon abilities would be implemented (note that these take 2 action points).  The ones I'm thinking of are:

Dual Attack:  Attack with each weapon at appropriate attack strengths.  Perhaps a significant accuracy bonus?  0 turn cooldown (i.e. can do again next turn).  I'm also thinking an additional (3rd attack) here at 1/2 strength maybe...

Attack + Parry:  Single attack, and a bonus to dodge and defense.  Dodge/Defense bonus stays in effect until start of your next turn(?) 0 turn cooldown.

Full Parry: Bigger bonus to dodge and defense.  Dodge/Defense bonus stays in effect until the start of your next turn.  0 turn cooldown.

 

I'm also thinking bonuses would vary depending on weapon.  Example, if you had a Sai as your second weapon, you'd get a stronger defensive bonus to reflect it's usefulness as a parrying weapon.

 

In the shop, I'd think you'd be purchasing both weapons as a combo (not individually), so that the specific benefits of each combo could be defined.

 

How do you think this should work?  What bonuses, etc. would you suggest? *

3,303 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I think extra combat speed is a bad, bad idea. The strength of the weapon is the important factor, and if you add combatspeed the potential damage multiplies.

In my opinion, you should balance them like you would a two-handed sword or a two-handed hammer. The total benefit should be the same at the same tech level. With that said, obviously, I'm not saying they should be identical, just have more or less the same benefit.

You must also consider how the AI will use these weapons. I notice you've split up the weapon into two, instead of putting both the weapons in one itemtype. This will mean the AI will never use them. Of course, if you do put them in the same itemtype, you can't customize wearing different weapons in each hand (not easily, anyway).

From one modder to another, I would request that spelldefs be kept properly separated, so that players can simply delete the ability file if they don't wish to include the new abilities.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

HeavenFall is 100% correct. The AI is designed in such a way that they simply pick the strongest weapon and run with it. Therefore, dual wielding in the manner shown above is a player only thing and should be balanced as such. The reason I used shields to emulate dual weapons is minimize work to create the effect. Using the method above, creating dual wield combinations only requires one to make the off hand weapons and then design various units to showcase the combination they desire. Using the one item set method, one would have to modify unit animations to get the right effect and then you are stuck with your one combination. However, using item sets, the AI would be capable of utilizing these set as they would look at the set and decide whether or not it was best. Since the AI is still in flux and the method shown above is probably superior to the item set method, I would suggest future mods use that method and we as a community push for changes to how the AI determines its unit designs.

I should be clear that I am currently working on a dual wield mod. My reasons for putting the above together was simply my own curiosity to see if it was in fact possible, and I have in fact shown this to be the case. That said, I am excite to see what people do with this and to see what kinds of additional item combinations come from it. Here is the code for that particular item, everyone should feel free to use it at their whim.

Code: xml
  3.     <GameItemType InternalName="TestOffHand1">
  4.         <DisplayName>Test offhander</DisplayName>
  5.         <Description>An Off Hand Weapon?</Description>
  6.         <Type>Defense</Type>
  7.         <WeaponType>Shield</WeaponType>
  8.         <GameItemTypeModel>
  9.             <ModelFile>Gfx\K_Sword_Dagger_Basic_01.hkb</ModelFile>
  10.             <Texture_All>Gfx\F_Swords_Basic_Texture_01.png</Texture_All>
  11.             <Attachment>hand_left_lcf</Attachment>
  12.         </GameItemTypeModel>
  13.         <CanBeEquipped>1</CanBeEquipped>
  14.         <CustomizationPointCost>2</CustomizationPointCost>
  15.         <IconFile>K_Basic_Dagger_01.png</IconFile>
  16.         <TintR>207</TintR>
  17.         <TintG>53</TintG>
  18.         <TintB>16</TintB>
  19.         <GameModifier>
  20.             <ModType>Unit</ModType>
  21.             <Attribute>AdjustUnitStat</Attribute>
  22.             <StrVal>UnitStat_Defense</StrVal>
  23.             <Value>3</Value>
  24.         </GameModifier>
  25.         <GameModifier>
  26.             <ModType>Unit</ModType>
  27.             <Attribute>AdjustUnitStat</Attribute>
  28.             <StrVal>UnitStat_Dodge</StrVal>
  29.             <Value>3</Value>
  30.         </GameModifier>
  31.         <Prereq>
  32.             <Type>Tech</Type>
  33.             <Attribute>Equipment_Amarian</Attribute>
  34.         </Prereq>
  35.     </GameItemType>

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Dual wielding can offer more opportunities for attack and parrying, so I think that improved accuracy, and improved defense (less than a shield) should be the effects. I don't think attack strength or speed should be modified because they don't make any sense.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Onionfighter, reply 3
Dual wielding can offer more opportunities for attack and parrying, so I think that improved accuracy, and improved defense (less than a shield) should be the effects. I don't think attack strength or speed should be modified because they don't make any sense.
End of Onionfighter's quote

I agree with this.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

It needs to work like it really used to, in D&D

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not a feasible way to do it. In D&D, dual wielding penalizes all your attacks, but you get an additional attack. So you're less accurate, but you get more chances to hit. Your off-hand weapon also had to be smaller than the main hand.

It wouldn't work because D&D used skill levels to adjust the penalty. Even being good at dual wielding, you always incurred a penalty of some sort to hit. Without being good at it, your penalties were atrocious. The rationale being it's harder to attack effectively with both hands full than just one (balance, essentially. You move differently when you've got extra weight.)

Kind of like "That guy is dual wielding. He's either incredibly talented, or a complete idiot." I prefer that way of seeing it, otherwise what's the point of NOT dual-wielding, if you're not going to use a shield.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

So you could be a Bladesinger, of course, and cast with your offhand.

 

I like the ideas here.  Item sets are probably the best way to go about it.  Perhaps a limited number of "common" sets would make sense.  If the weapons are small, you should get a speed bonus, if you use one for parrying and one main weapon, you get a small increase in attack strenghth and a small increase in dodge (which we'll use to simulate parrying).  Such as a scimitar and a jabiya, or a a short sword and a dagger.

 

No Drizzt Do'urden, please.