Indeed - even losing 3 games certainly doesn't mean that your team can't still place in the final 4 - even possibly in the number 1 slot.  Quite a few games left!  So, don't lose heart and get back in there and kick some butt.

Just wanted to provide some feedback to baddaddy's team regarding our last game together - not looking for a commentary, but feel free to watch and throw your 2 cents in.

Cow/Soccer/Pacov win won game 1 vs Baddaddy/chiefy/trouser

Game 1:  http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&show=details&id=161332

Cow was ooze ub, soccer minion oak, pacov hw reg vs badddaddy as hp stack fire tb, chiefy as support senda, and trouser as tower rook.

I think the first thing to note (and would have been very good to make note of) was that 2 of our dg builds are fairly weak early game, which meant everything we were doing was about late game.  Now, we had a reg, which might get an early game kill due to a snipe/hw, but probably not due to monk management and hp stacks (along with us lacking a spit ub for the early game dmg spam).  So, as expected by us, early game, you guys ran the show in warscore (I think up by 800 at one point midgameish) and we fully expected to give up a tower or 2.  Our game was all about level 10 and beyond.  A couple of the things that stood out to me...One kill on trouser in particular.  During a point were I believe both rook an oak were relaning.  Now trouser had been tearing up oak left and right early game while he was in a his tower farm and with a sedna at his back.  This time, trouser was solo, at full hp/mana, probably without a monk.  He saw oak and decided to push him out, likely thinking it would be a really easy push because of how much of a pushover he seemed like.  Except that now trouser didn't have any towers up, oak had a chance to do some leveling, and the dps from minion oak can get pretty intense.  Trouser got pushed back pretty fast by oak, sniped, and shortly after killed (all within about a minute tops).  I don't think anyone ported in to help him either. 

There were other times that your team was good about popping in and assisting, but I don't really remember that many gank ops that were exploited (or if we offered any outside of soccer screwing up once early game).  I don't really like the decision to go fire tb (or primarily fire) with a support sedna and a rook.  I'd think an extra stun, like frost nova, would have been more useful and provided more of an opportunity for kills.  As it stood, we picked at team that relied primarily on aa/minion aa and had snares going as well (I assume cow had his snares going and I had up to level 3 of my snare working from remote snipes).  So, escape, even with fire aura, was exceptionally unlikely.  If senda had silence 2, then she could pop that and anyone could just port out, but the dps from oak's minions + ub might stop that from happening.

What would I change... I'd start with dg selection.  I don't really like having a sedna with this combo - the team just lacks a good amt of dps and I don't think there is much ganking power unless someone on the other team decides to run into a tower farm solo and your whole team either ports in or is already there.  Now, you have a great deal of pushing power early game and could, like you did, easily wipe out an entire side of towers... but after that, the combo's lost its bang for the buck imo. At any rate, we came out with what I think was a very strong counter to your dg choices, but that was because you guys picked first.  Next game, you'll have the opportunity to counter our choices.

If any of you can play a blood Oculus at a high level I would choose him and either go hybrid or ice TB for extra stuns/interrupts.

Yeah - an occ instead of sedna would have shut down the spirits a little bit easier (especially with a tower farm going on).  You'd lose the ability to heal outside of monks, etc, but you make that up in damage and your rook playing a little more cautiously knowing there is no possible heal inbound.  Trouser did a good job early game keeping his favor item hidden - I figured either dcv or blade.  Think it took abt 5 minutes or so to find out what he had, which kept me from focusing snipes on him (he picked blade btw).

First of all, thanks for the tips guys. Much appreciated.

As regards DG selection, Chiefy and I are limited by how many games we have had the opportunity to play (at least at a high level); we both play one DG pretty well, I couple decently, and a few more we are familiar with but wouldn't play vs. a skilled team. Trouser is skilled with all of them, but hasn't played for a while. Like, for some reason, I just don't get Occ, and always get raped when I play him. I went with Fire Tb precisely because the of the chase/kill potential that the other DGs lack and because being even slower vs. ooze beast would have been a death sentence. Laning vs. ub for most of the game, I was able to hold him off, though he did get one early kill on me. I did pick up Frost Nova I and II at levels 11 and 12, but had little opportunity to use. Chiefy played Sed cause that's the only Tier II DG he plays, except fire Tb, and Trouser wanted to give Rook a try, and we tend to defer to his experience.

Having played together so much, I know Chiefy will call for a port when he sees one is needed (and vice versa), allowing each other to focus more on the local game. Trouser is quieter and we have to adjust to him expecting us to see when he needs a port (and getting him to call for them earlier.)

I recognize that my greatest weakness is lack of a deeper understanding of Dg-specific counters. I've tended to stick with a few Dgs and try to develop counters within that Dgs build and items against other Dgs, rather than learning to play other Dgs that naturally counter better.

You couldn't figure it out because he hadn't... he didn't pick till like level 4-5.

sneaky :0

What specific dg's do you and chiefy feel like are dgs that you play very solid?  I might be able to suggest some combos based on that if you like. 

Our go-to combo had been what you guys ended up playing (kinda). I play standard hybrid Oak, Chiefy plays Ub and that leaves Trouser playing DA or Reg, (so far, always Reg.) We got rolled with that combo game 1 vs. jongalt so we tried me as Rook, Chiefy as Sedna and Trouser as Occ.

So yeah, if it wasn't clear, in 2/3 of the games we've ever played, I've played Oak and Chiefy plays UB.

I'm curious what you do as oak late game, because I think I noticed from either a live stream or watching a replay that your build seemed to peter out somehow - or that your oak wasn't as effective as I thought it should be late game.  I assume maybe its an item thing, but perhaps a build issue.  Maybe its the hybrid part that's hurting... I'll have to watch another replay to get your build back in my mind.  You can do some good dps early mid with pent + snipe, but you have to coordinate that... not the best tactic, but if you have a reg that's sniping, you should use it. 

hmm... the character's you guys play well make it challenging to find a great combo based on tourney rules.  I'd think you could do decent with the ub/oak/reg deal, but I'd really think you'd want a bots ub that spams spit combined with a steady flow of snipes.  The lower hp on ub might cause a problem for you though, and I don't know if chiefy can pull off a good/decent blade ub, but I'd give that a go in a practice game... but its generally best if you power level the ub on mana side if he's going spit build... which means you have oak and reg on one side (which isn't ideal, but can work).  As long as there is good micro on the monks, the ub should be able to push out anyone with snipes+spit going on and get some power leveling on.  If you are up against a team with only 1 general, a decent bots ub tactic is to spit on the monk that's giving heals to whoever u are laning with.  Eventually, but not always, the 1 generally will fail to send back a monk/etc quickly.  Late game bots ub can become very powerful and you have great potential for a few early kills and taking out the towers of the side ub is on. I'd give that combo a go as it let's you stick to the characters you guys can play best, but the question is whether or not chiefy can pull off a good bots ub (I don't always advise bots ub, btw, if the other team has a reg... can get a little dicey early game, but no big deal late game). 

Chiefy's sedna wasn't bad, per se.  He did his support role fairly well - I think I saw a few missed silence opportunities and a few pointless silences here and there.  Not sure if he leveled it up to 2 or not.  With the team problems, I recommend coordinating using silence to let hurt teammates tp out (once you have silence lv 2)... its not exactly a situation you want to be in (where you'd even consider having to cast silence to get someone out), but it is an option.  I usually use it for cover if I see a teammate trying to get out because something horribly wrong or a sigil is about to wear off and they might die... that sort of thing (after healing, of course).  In high level games, silence is really useful, in my experience, for completely changing the flow of the fight... and you have to figure out just the right timing to use it... and have a team that can spam ALOT of damage very quick.  The typical, and best situation is when 3 folks on the other team are pushing your entire team back and beating the crap out of one of your teammates, but taking a bit of damage themselves.  The trick is to learn when to cast silence - preferably JUST before someone would think to cast a sigil or orb.  Everyone relies on sigils to some degree.  If you can spam enough damage over the 3-4 second period that silence is active or string stuns together right after silence is cast before your target has a chance to react, you can kill most any demigod.  But the timing is REALLY tricky and you need to be VERY coordinated with your team to pull off kills like this.  And you have to cast the silence and focus on a dg that has already taken a decent chunk of damage (I typically start thinking about using silence this way when I see any dg near my team with about 3k hp as that player will be starting to think about using that sigil to push further).  Anyway, blahblah done for now. 

Good points. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Yeah, Chiefy is a pretty hardcore Blood Beast player. He has played BotS, but swears by Blood. He is always open to trying to get better. He hates losing.

My Oak build is pretty much the same as rawwrrr posted back in the day: by 10, max pen, max, surge, Shield 3, DJ, then Spirits, DJ and SP after that. It does slow down around 7-12 but if I have kept up on levels, it is pretty powerful once the spirits get up. The problem is, it's so expensive early, with bishop upgrades and demolishers, plus requires 2 helms, that by mid-game my teammates have bought all the upgrades and now need me to chip in. So once I get that starting kit, it is rare I get Journeyman's or Hungarlings or anything fun, because we have either one or lost at that point.

WATCH THIS http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&show=details&id=161513

Not actual tourney teams but the full rules were in place (Me/Renzo/Chiefy vs Kalel/BadDaddy/Pacov)

This is the business time Occ, no d***in around with amulet in this one.

that is so the game where kalel refused to pick a favor item all game, isn't it, you poop....

Lol Kalel does things like that so that there's an excuse in competitive games, usually it's him choosing to go all random when people are trying to play seriously.  Whether he had blood, or blade, or essence of magic whatever of the 3 favor items he usually picks that wasn't stopping the triple kill that turned the game just after you guys got giants though.  However if he had amulet of TP that might have been a big help, because he was bouncing around much more then usual. 

Also clearly this game would have been posted if you guys won, since you were taking it pretty seriously with the 5 minutes it took you guys to come up with a counter to our character selection, so what the hell.

Sadly, I think that triple kill was the direct result of a missed Shield opp on my part that might have made that fight go the other way, or at least not quite so badly against us.

However the 35 minutes of, "Are you going to pick a favor item?" "No." "Why not?" "Because." "Are you going to pick a favor?" "No." "Why not..." did get to be pretty amusing. Too bad the replay doesn't capture that.

I don't remember how that happened, seemed like chiefy finally decided it was time to kill people and we just came along for the ride, he was playing pretty hesitant for most of the game.  But yea, shows how much of an advantage voice chat can be since you guys almost won with a weakened Rook.

Yeah - I don't deal all that well with frustrating crap when I've been enjoying a few tasty beverages... sorry you had to listen to my constant focus on kalel's stubborn butt.  He needed to go back to base more often than he should have due to limited mana... shame there is no favor item that can remedy that problem.  But anyway, good win for you guys.  This wouldn't have been a replay I'd have posted if we won btw.  I was certainly wanting to be competitive, but my main goal was trying to check out baddaddy's oak.  You guys might have seen a highlight reel for yourselves, but I was way too caught up in my focus on PICK A FAVOR ITEM.  He decided to get magical coin pouch after we bought giants.  I'd enjoy playing those teams again in the future though - I'm sure those would be fun match ups. 

Oh not at all. I found it amusing, that's all. Chiefy and I had a good laugh about it today while we were hauling his big ass couch up two stories on ropes to his new place. 'Cause of that though, still not sure he's going to have internets tonight, or tomorrow (if they didn't come today, like they were supposed to, they won't come on Sunday) in which case we will fail to get our games in by Sunday. 

I'd be happy to play that match again anytime. I don't know if Nom will play with me for a while, since he was so pissed we got stomped in the next game with a 40 game/ 39% guy on our team. 'Cause we were gonna win...? I played pretty bad too.

yea - he's always had a little bit of a thing with playing competitive games against his buds.  Way back when we just had our original premade, he absolutely hated it when we'd play our pre vs our pre.  Just doesn't like that type of competition from time to time, and then does things like that - which drive me crazy

Yeah - I generally agree. 

If you've been watching the tournament, he gets blood now when he really wants to play, so he would still have had his mana problem.  I actually think despite your PICK A FAVOR ITEM focus you noticed the highlight reel fashion that we turned it around too, considering you didn't want to stay to see the scoreboard or say gg.  I definitely 190'd it by the way, might as well through that out there since Kalel's plan of diminishing my achievements worked lol.

Intelligent players do change their favor item up based on situation, though (amulet of tp on an occ for instance, right)?  If I'm taking no real damage and haven't selected a favor item and am in need of mana... I don't think I'd pick blood... maybe he'd play differently, but that's a no brainer to me. 

And no - i think i looked at the game a little differently than you.  I don't have any problem getting beat - I don't have any problem admitting your team played well.  I get distracted by bs though.  Would the outcome have been the same if I wasn't spending 20 minutes focused on kalel?  Maybe.  Do I care?  Not really - because I was playing to see if I could help baddaddy's oak game.  And I failed at that because I got very focused on kal being a goof and not picking a favor item.  I'm not in the same mindset as kal where I pull some bs if I lose a game or try to throw the game before it starts so I have an excuse if I lose. My team lost the game.  You beat us.  I'm just saying I lost focus because of some nonsense and I didn't accomplish my main goal (paying attention to bad daddy's oak to see if I can help him as I think he has a late game problem) or my secondary goal of winning the game.  That doesn't mean I didn't try my best to win.  I was just pissed that kal pulled some nonsense and distracted me from both goals. 

And honestly - no I didn't notice anything super awesome (not to say that it didn't happen), but I had a bit of tunnel vision.  I have my own highlight reel in my head - we were winning and kal was taunting that he hadn't picked a favor item.  We started losing and he still wouldn't pick.  We started really losing and he decide to buy magical coin pouch after buying cats or giants... I really wasn't focused on your team at all at that point and really just pissed off.  I love competitive games and that could have been one (hence my desire to try that combo again).  Maybe you felt like it was competitive, but on my side, it degenerated into nonsense where I felt like it was silly to continue. 

Secondary goal of winning?  Come on now, I've watched a lot of your streams lol.  Sometimes when you win it almost seems like your team is still going to implode.  You hate to lose evenly matched games almost as much as I do.

Boo on your face.  I'm happy to play it again.  I'm sure it would have been a fun game. 

http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&show=details&id=161481

this games shows how one super close fight around mid game can turn the entire balance of the game, especially if it's ub vs ub in a pro environment.

I had trouble all beginning game against a ub with monk and cleric and hp flag. but after that intense close kill with kira's fire tb coming through the mid I was ahead. And that is only possible with absolute perfect communication.

I don't know if I agree with this from my personal experience, even though I know all pros use some sort of a voice chat system to communicate with the team (although if you listen in, a lot of the times they're not even talking).

Voice chat is nice because you can instantly inform your teammates, but at the same time, your teammates start to become more dependent on you alerting them.

I remember a while back when I first started to play with Orcun, none of us used voice chat for about 4 months, but since we played together so damn often, you kind of have these instincts about what the other person is thinking. The omission of voice chat also got rid of a lot of hostility between teams, since through vent, it's easier to tell when someone is frustrated or angry with you.

I do enjoy voice chat solely for the socializing aspect though.