3D icons for TriDComm

bait us with some great reward

That looks like a radical change from explorer. I should be able to actually search through a complicated 3 dimensional world to find my files, just like in the movies. Better be careful in there though, I heard if you die in cyberspace you die in real life too.

Erm...sorry.

Bait hmmm. TriDComm is freeware. You will have links to you on TriDComm's site

"But it's freeware! Waah!"

I'm going to be blunt about this, because I see these requests everywhere, all the time (in my email, on forums like this, etc), and quite frankly I think they're worse than spam. We do not exist to sit here waiting for every little me too programmer with a gimmick app to come say "HAY MY PRGRAM IZ KEWL AN UR KEWL 2 SO MAK SUM KEWL ICONZ 4 IT??????????" so we have a break in our daily routine.

Let me make it a little clearer: I have several large projects going at any given time, and countless dozens of smaller ones. I like my projects, and they take up a lot of my day. So the question is: why in the hell should I just drop everything I'm doing and make something for you? A link? Don't make me laugh. You're on GEOCITIES for godsakes, it's not like you're raking in the traffic. Don't even THINK about responding, "well I'll put you in the credits," cos that's just as big a joke as the link. You aren't making the next LiteSTEP here. You need to provide REAL COMPENSATION. You need to make me WANT to work for you, cos this little "but I'm giving it away" pity trip isn't getting you jack.

So, in the immortal words of Eustice Baggs: "What's your offer!?"

ess-vid: If you have projects then you don't need TriDComm. If somebody doesn't have any project then s/he may need TriDComm because it's a possibility to show his/her work.

Be happy with your several large and small projects and don't discourage others.

I gotta agree with trid on this one. If it's a decent program then what's the problem with asking for a little help? Not all programmers excell in visual design. For a lot of lesser known artists this is a great oppertunity (if, of course, the program is good enough to catch on) to have their work noticed.


If you recieved an e-mail from him about it, reply to the e-mail he sent with your opinions. But replying the way you did in a public forum, which was posted for everyone, not specifically you, was completely uncalled for.

Ah, ess-vid is just being ess-vid.

"Uncalled for" my fanny...

Get these things for a couple years. You grow to wish evil things upon anyone that asks this, regardless of who it's directed to. People who don't give you anything for work are not fun people to work for. I've done it a few times, early on. It's a horror, cos it's just like a pay gig, except, well, you aren't getting paid. Imagine going to work for wherever you work for, for nothing... no pay. Don't care how much you like making stuff, it's a whole different ballpark when you're doing it for someone else. Now imagine your place of employment tells you the compensation for your work is being listed on the employee roster... but the company is small and doesn't have much of a repution or much of a chance to build one (I'll return to this point later). You'd tell your boss to blow it out his ear and work elsewhere, wouldn't you? Sure you would,you'd be crazy not to.

This is what our friend's doing... most of the truly worthwhile people here pull a decent amount of traffic, be it on pages here or on their own site. He's saying "a link is big compensation" when his site likely pulls less traffic than most of the people here do. On top of that, app site/inprogram links do absolutely jack. My name is in Napigator (or was, don't know about now), which as most of you know has been plastered all over WIRED mag and half a billion other places... did I get any big increase in hits from it? Nope. So sparky over there telling me "I'll give you a link" like I'm supposed to think that's bigtime good stuff is goofy.

Starting to get clearer? I don't refuse these jobs and give the person asking a lashing cos I'm "a big meanie head", I do it cos I know better. I have experience doing this stuff. It's teeth pulling agony, and the people that get their requests filled get used to getting something for nothing, get more demanding, and generally progress into that nightmare client you hear pro designers talk about in hushed tones while sipping a latte.

Back to that point I said I'd elaborate on. The sad truth is this program won't take off. Why? These 3D UIs don't work. Sure, they sound cool on paper and if you really don't think about them too much, but in practice they fall apart. Which is why there have been several 3D shells without any of them really reaching any kind of serious noteriety. The reason being that you're attempting 3D interaction in a 2D space. Works fine for games, yes, but not for interfaces because of the caveats of 3D on 2D (ie for speed you must sacrifice accuracy and vice versa). Here's an experiment to try, to give you a feel of what it's like: take a box, at least 12-14 inches deep, and tape it to your head so it's like you're looking out a window. Then try to do things in a place you've never been before (or have someone rearrange a room while you're out, you're killing your sense of familiarity). You'll likely find yourself clumsy and a less less efficient than normal. This is exactly what 3D on 2D operates like: world through a porthole.
Yeah, this is pretty unrelated to the topic at hand, but with HUI studies being a hobby of mine, grossly inefficient systems like this being pushed cos they're "cool" annoy me to no end.


All that said, you people needed a good rant anyway. And you know the 'vid delivers when the need arises.

Crae,
ain't it fun when he's right, though?

All I am sayig is you can simply ignore it.


Matter of fact.. I think I'll start taking my own advice now..*s*

Ah, just like old times....

Wow....mine was the first 'smiley'...

ess-vid, your replys are way overkill, warranted or not. Are you having a bad day?

hehe ess

essvid is always having a bad day.
You would too if you were him.

Bad day? Nope, good day, as is typical of me.

Phar0e, I take it you're not one of the older members in this group (nothing wrong with that, just relevant to what I'm saying)? A lot of the "old guard" here that remember me from the days long past when skinz.org, and even customize.org, know why my responses are "overkill".
You see, humans, as a species, like to think themselves intelligent, rational creatures. The truth, however, is that we're just as stupid and stubborn and panicky as any "lowly animal". One thing regarding this I learned long ago is that people like to feel they are right, regardless of whether they are or not, and will go to great lengths to keep that sense of surety in their beliefs. People simply don't like to feel wrong... they don't much care if they are wrong or not, it's whether they feel wrong that counts. Therefore, people, as a general rule, don't listen to nicely put rational thought that doesn't line up with their own thoughts. In areas and fields of likeminded people (such as the crowd here) this stubborness is exponentially worse. Witness the history of invention, which is rife with intelligent men putting forth rational thinking being told to sod off until what they said simply couldn't be ignored without great loss.

So there lies the problem: if people won't listen to something that doesn't support what they currently believe when one uses calmness and rationality, how do you get them to listen? Well, think about how people get some of these wrong notions in the first place. Either someone in a powerful postion relative to themselves told them (this is why a lot of incorrect things we learn from our parents and teachers in early childhood stick with us), or someone relayed it to them through a highly emotional claim (which is why we had the salem witch trials, and yelling "fire!" is illegal (IIRC) if there's not actually a fire). In short, emotion, especially uncomfortable emotion (fear, anger, so on), brings about the reaction necessary for the learning process to take place.

Now, I know what you're thinking. If they already learned something via this method, why, then, would they learn it again, if they're so stubborn? The key lies in not the knowledge, but the reaction. Remember how I said people will go to great lengths to feel correct? Ah! Yes, therein lies your solution! That drive for surety can be used against them. The trick is to be stubborn youself. Like animals, when confronted with what we feel to be a threat, we attempt to intimidate the offender (which is why some people call me variants of "big meanie head"). If that doesn't work, we attempt it again, but with additional people, essentially intimidation through ostrisism (which is why people that haven't been around here long enough to get to know me cry out that I'm a "big meanie head" and should be cast out). With your own perserverence, however, they'll eventually be left with no choice but to get enough info to actually prove they're right. And this is where you win. They're learning. You've effectively forced them out of their secure little world to make them adjust their views.


Again, I know what you're thinking. What if I'm wrong and they're right? Or *gasp* all are wrong? I say, good! You see, I'm an intellectual. Does that mean I'm a whizbang rocket scientist one step away from figuring out TOE? Nope (A lot of people like to think the term intellectual is an ego thing, when it's not). I just like to learn... I'm driven by it, in fact. As I told kenray long ago, I don't really care whether I win or lose things like this, I care that -someone- is learning. Whether that someone be my "opponent(s)" or myself, so long as there's learning, it's a good thing.


(BTW, believe it or not, I'm actually a very easygoing person. There's only a very few people I dislike, and even those I can get along with (witness Russ and myself talking about metalworking a few months ago). Even when I'm writing my "big meanie head" posts, I typically do it smiling, mind half on something I enjoy. So basically, yeah, what you see here is an act :> )

Half a mind sounds about right!

" you big meanie head!"

There's nothing wrong with this fellow's asking for some help, even if unpaid.

There's nothing wrong with ess-vids message.

I agree that profesional level work for a professional level project, (even if it's freeware) should be compensated for.

Where ess-vid and I depart in tactics is the perception of impatience his posts impart. While 'ess' may have fought this battle countless times, tridcomm is a newbie to this scene and deserves a modicum of civility. Tridcomm's now been "educated", at what may amount to the cost of his total advoidance of this community, if and when he elects to pay for his services.

ess-vid speaks loudly, forcefully and passionately. Nowt wrong with that, but in this case, by his choice of words: "us" "we" "our", he self appoints himself as spokesman for the whole community. It is evident by the critical posts, that he does not speak for the entire community. Had 'ess' spoken only for himself, then his comments could be taken as a purely personal position and delt with as such.

Man, ess-vid. Make whatever excuses you like. You're still in the wrong on this one. It's not even an argument; you're just plain wrong.

Not your logic. I can agree with that on almost every point. But your approach is so far off as to be almost laughable (if it weren't so damned irritating).

Here is this guy, asking for help in a forum in which he has the reasonable expectation of receiving it. And here's you using his request as an excuse to make some belligerent (albeit intelligent) argument. He didn't come on here and say "Hey ess-vid, make me some icons". He said, "I'd need 3D icons for it. Can somebody make them?" What's the harm in that? You have the option of saying "No". Instead, you crucify him.

Again, make whatever claims you want about your personality. I can only go on what I see. And what I see, from this, is that you're something I can't say in polite company.

If his request struck a nerve or related to some personal crusade of yours, fine; discuss it with him here in a rational manner, brow-beat him in private, or just say "no" and leave it be. But don't blast him publically when he's done nothing wrong. It's just plain rude and unwarranted.

"Like animals, when confronted with what we feel to be a threat, we attempt to intimidate the offender (which is why some people call me variants of "big meanie head")."

Nothing like a lesson with examples.

I've done this before, gentlemen, you keep forgetting this point. I've done free work before. I've refused it before. Starting out, I did exactly what you suggest, being nice. I've written emails so sickeningly sweet you'd swear I was related to Doreen (no offense doreen =P ). Doesn't work. You get three months of email going "PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!!!!". I've done the frank, sterile approach, just saying "No, I do not accept work without pay". Again, doesn't work. You get a reply berating you, your ancestors, and all of your descendants to come. Over time I've learned it's better to ignore them, and best, time permitting, to scare the bejeezus out of them.

On to more specific points:

Russ:

Pay careful attention to where I use "we". Here's where it is in my first post:
"We do not exist to sit here waiting for every little me too programmer with a gimmick app to come say "HAY MY PRGRAM IZ KEWL AN UR KEWL 2 SO MAK SUM KEWL ICONZ 4 IT??????????" so we have a break in our daily routine."
If anyone disagrees with this, I sincerely feel for them. Second post doesn't really have any "we"s, closest thing is when I'm talking about HUI stuff. Third post is about Human psychology, so all the "we"s refer to humanity as a whole, and unless you're all posting from big vats out in the Arizona desert, well...

Also, your "lose a member of the community" ploy can be reversed. What if an artist takes this and ends up so frustrated they just quit art altogether? While it's obviously a subjective opinion, I do feel that any artist here, no matter how talented, is more valuable to us than someone asking for free work. Now, that's not saying I find these small time programmers worthless, just that I hold the artists in higher regard (and for the record, I do hope our friend sticks around, and just considers this a learning experience).

I've written emails so sickeningly sweet you'd swear I was related to Doreen
by ess-vid - 6/26/2001 1:02:50 AM

who ya callin sickeningly sweet! I'll kick your icons ess!!!
hehe


ess you know there will be another small time programmer coming around the corner any minute, so get ready!
most of these kind hit "all" the skinning community boards in a sweep in hopes of getting one catch out of 5 posts or so nothing will stop them cuz most really don't know any better and do it innocently asking for help, however I do agree w/ you on the ones that are downright vultures that know the game and rip off ppl, but it's all about "Beware" for the graphic artist who chooses to do the work.

usually it only takes one rip off to learn a good lession...

/me looks about himself....am I back in skinz again?.....

You know I love ya Dor =P

Anyway, in my experience, those that don't know any better are the worst of the lot for exactly that reason.

Let me explain: as I've said, I've done free stuff in the past. Not all of it was a nightmare. Particularly, doing work for Mian and Gorman were memorable experiences. Why? Because they knew how to work with people, and have had experience doing it with people for pay. When I did some free stuff for them conversations were full of "please," "thank you," "if you have the time," "if you want to," and so on an so forth. People not like this get you every time because they never seem to grasp the concept that you're doing this work for them in your spare time out of the kindness of your heart. They're demanding, they treat it like it's real work that you're obligated to. Some can be downright abusive. And this is consistent, not just isolated incidents.

The thing about all work is there must be some incentive there. For the stuff with Mian and Gorman, it was being associated with them for a relatively small amount of work. Another factor is you must go in hoping to be accepted, but never expecting it. For instance, a while back I approached Brad with a project I had long since tooled on (an icon editor). The incentive I pushed was that they would own the project (with the small caveat that I wanted to direct the development to a degree... after all, it is my baby, don't want to have it mutate too much). They said no, and that was that. It explains what worthy incentive is though... I didn't say "I'll link you on CleffieNET" or anything of that nature. Provide something really worthwhile, and your chances dramaticlly improve (but are never assured).

ess-vid: how much should I pay for one 3d icon ?

how much should somebody pay for me integrating her/his icon into TriDComm ?

Just say numbers.

I can't answer that with a solid number... it all depends on the artist doing it. I'd say start at $50 USD. If that doesn't work, raise it a few bucks (10-25) and try again. Be sure to check out the person's work (and make sure it's -their- work they're showing you) before starting the job.

A bit of advice: it's best to pay for stuff like this, as it develops a business relationship, and potentially a friendly one. If you pay someone to do jobs for you, eventually you'll be able to leverage that relationship to gain what you want occasionally without money (you'll still pay, to be sure, but with a favour to be called on in the future, stuff like that). This is certainly a good thing.

Also, I do hope you know I have nothing personal against you. As I said, this is all an act to provoke a response :>