A numerical analysis of combat and possible solution

from Elemental Forums

I have been thinking about the combat system and the problems with it. (Yeah, I occasionally think.) Many people complain about the combat being unbalanced in one way or another, and I have to agree. The root of the problem is with heroes, which, as many people know, are useless late-game. I will try to explain why.

Now, just as a preface, I will not cover monsters here, because monster stats can always be changed to balance them with the core system of normal units and heroes. Also, I will not cover magic for the same reason - balancing it is a separate issue. Finally, I will only cover the Kingdom side of things, since I haven't played as the Empire yet. However, the same ideas should carry over to the Empire.

Analysis of the Problem

Heroes and units essentially start out the same. One hero is more or less equivalent to a normal unit. The hero generally has a little higher stats, which you would expect. He is a hero after all. Heros and units can also use the same equipment, but a hero's increased stats mean they will generally be a little higher overall. So at the start of the game, heros work fine.

The problem arises when units start getting grouped together. The first grouping is four units. When four units are grouped together, their attack, defense, and health (i.e. their combat stats) are all totalled. For a similarly equipped hero to compete, he would have to raise his strength, dexterity, and consitution all to 40, which would give him a x4 multiplier to the combat stats. Given that a hero can usually raise about 2 points of attribute per level, this means that a hero would have to be level 45 to compete against a similarly equipped 4-man party. (Raise 3 attributes 30 points each at ~2 points per level.) When you get to 8 man squads or 12 man companies, the problem is only made worse.

Notes:

1. I assume a hero starts with ~10 points in each attribute. I know some start higher than this, but that doesn't change the conclusion much.

2. I also assume that a normal unit starts with 10 points in each attribute. If I am making a wrong assumption, let me know.

3. Upgrading armor/weapons is not considered, because you can always equip units with the same items.

So, in conclusion, the current combat system is wholly unsuited to heroes in the late game.

Possible Solutions

Several suggestions have been posted. One common one is to increase the number of points that are issued to a hero per level. Consider that even if you give a hero 10 points per level (enough to raise ~20 points of attributes), the hero would be able to compete against a 4-man party at level 5. To compete against a 12-man party would take level 17. (12x combat values means the hero would have to have 120 in his 3 attributes. That 110x3 attribute points to raise, or 330/20=16.5 levels to gain.) The problem here is that this is a dramatic increase of combat abilities for each level. A level 2 hero could mop the floor with a level 1 hero, instead of being only marginally better, as the designers intended.

Another possible solution could be to reduce normal unit stats. However, even if you halve the stats, you are just halving the levels needed to match the unit, which still puts it in the ridiculous range.

A third solution could be to stagger a hero's points per level. For example, get 2 points at level 2, 3 points at level 3, etc... This only slightly alleviates the problem. (Fight 4-man party at L15, 8-man squad at L20.) It also could cause imbalances against heroes of high levels.

My Solution

My solution is to do away with the 1-man units, and make all normal units appear in groups. Start with a 4-man party as the basic unit, which is equivalent to a hero. An 8-man squad would be essentially two 4-man units, which is double the normal stats, and a 12-man company would be triple strength. Now, this still leaves the hero with a problem - his stats aren't going to be up to par with a double-strength unless his 3 combat stats are double normal (20). So, in addition, we make these changes:

1. A hero automatically gets 10 more hit points per level. Normal units get HP each level, so why shouldn't heroes? This also some other beneficial side effects. First, combat heroes can focus purely on strength and dexterity, which puts them on even ground with caster heroes who focus entirely on intelligence and essence. Second, fewer points are needed to advance a hero's stats.

2. A hero can raise exactly 5 attributes points per level. This means he can get both his strength and dexterity to 20 by level 5. At level 5, he will be able to go toe-to-toe with the 8 man squad. At level 9, he will be able to fight the 12-man company. And, if needed, a 16-man group could be added that he could fight at level 13.

So, that is my solution. Let me know what you think.

 

elemental
12,378 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I think a melee hero is very powerful with version 1.07, because every unit of a group makes an attack roll and the result is compared to the defense roll of the hero. It is no problem to start with 15 Dexterity and 15 Strength. This makes the equipment of the hero more effective than the equipment of a group and the player needs only gildar to buy the equipment of the hero.

The only problem is a lucky attack when the enemy has a high attack roll and the hero a low defense roll. A high Constitution helps at the beginning of the game, but is useless at the late game.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 1
I think a melee hero is very powerful with version 1.07, because every unit of a group makes an attack roll and the result is compared to the defense roll of the hero. It is no problem to start with 15 Dexterity and 15 Strength. This makes the equipment of the hero more effective than the equipment of a group and the player needs only gildar to buy the equipment of the hero.

The only problem is a lucky attack when the enemy has a high attack roll and the hero a low defense roll. A high Constitution helps at the beginning of the game, but is useless at the late game.
End of Wizard1200's quote

That system is bugged. Groups don't lose defense and attack as their numbers dwindle. So if you make a group of 12 guys that each have 10 attack and 10 defense, you have 12 individuals with 10 attack and 10 defense each - that's fine. But if 11 of them die, you don't have 1 guy with 10 attack and 10 defense, you have  1 guy with 120 attack and 120 defense which can shit on any hero it fights.

Fixing that would help heroes a lot, but you still have the problem of combat being so random due to 2 dice rolls.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

a hero would have to be level 45 to compete against a similarly equipped 4-man party.
End of quote

You forgot something. Unlike normal troops, a hero can gain stats from reading books that he can find in ruins. Theoretically, he can read an unlimited number of books bringing his stats to very high numbers.

Once i was playing a sovereign who i designed as a non-spellcaster(no spellbooks at start, all physical stats maxed). He did nothing but clean dungeons the whole game, ending up very powerful, with almost 200 attack and 150-ish defense(without abusing the multiple ring etc. stacking). The only problem was his health, as there are currently no books/potions boosting hero constitution, but that can be easily remedied by adding them to the game.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

If it is true that groups now make several small attacks rather than one large attack, that helps the problem. The units will have an advantage in that they make multiple attacks, but the hero theoretically would have higher stats due to higher attributes. However, keep in mind that if equally matched, you can count on a good bit of damage getting through. Even if the 'two roll' system is fixed (which it absolutely has to be to make this game playable), a hero's hitpoints are relatively low compared to a group of units. I would still opt for the automatic HP gain per level. Let constitution be a multipler for the base hitpoints, which are 10 per level, the way that strength and agility are a multiplier for the equipment stats.

Also, how does this come in to play against monsters with high defense? If you have an 8-unit group with 10 attack come up against a monster with 80 defense, in theory they would be equally matched. However, the 8-man group would have no chance against the monster if they each make separate attacks. Also, if a hero (or monster) has an 80 attack against an 8-man group with 10 defense each (which would display as 80 defense), how does that get handled? At the very least, the unit description should show '8 x 10' attack instead of '80'. And, defense needs to show the base defense level if that is what is rolled against every attack.

Finally, monsters need to be toned down. I am tired of trolls with 120 attack showing up that I have no hope of defending against. Heros can't defend against that even if well equipped, because one bad roll and he is DOA. And, if troops now attack and defend indivually, then even large groups would be decimated by that attack.

I know there are a lot of people who compare this game to Master of Magic, but I try not to do that. In this case however, I have to say the MoM had an excellent combat system. The units all attacked as one, and as each one died, the overall attack and defense suffered. Also, in that system, each attack point had a 30% chance of hitting, and likewise each defense point had a 30% chance of blocking. Elemental needs a system like this. More dice rolls = more determinate results. Finally, all melee attacks were simultaneous with their counterattack. However, Age of Wonders didn't use simultaneous attack, and it worked ok. I understand that things are a bit different with Elemental because of the variable-sized units and the customizable nature of unit creation. I still believe that 1-man units should go away. Really - who every heard of training one soldier for anything?

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting stax77, reply 3

You forgot something. Unlike normal troops, a hero can gain stats from reading books that he can find in ruins. Theoretically, he can read an unlimited number of books bringing his stats to very high numbers.
End of stax77's quote

Theory and practice are two different things. In all of my games, the books that I have found are all +1 charisma and extra experience. I have found tons of charisma books, and many experience books, (and a few potions that raised essence,) but never a single book that raised any combat attributes.

 


Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

i have never really got into the adventuring side of the game. usually i don't spot any inns within my territory after the first quest, and i can't figure out how to increase my notable location level. i think it's shameful that hp are linked entirely to con, with no level based bonuses. CON should provide a % bonus to base hp tied to level. currently even a well defended sov can be killed with one or two well placed attack spells. it doesn't help that the equipment in the shop makes it more expensive to equip my sov than it is to recruit a squad of troops with equal equipment. i honestly don't understand how anyone makes an effective combat sov. the magic side is a little more effective, but by the late game even that has been made redundant.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 6
currently even a well defended sov can be killed with one or two well placed attack spells.
End of Sethai's quote

Agreed, especially with the little buggers who do 10 points of unavoidable damage to all your units. They can take out anything, but are particularly good against heroes (including a sovereign).

Quoting Sethai, reply 6
it doesn't help that the equipment in the shop makes it more expensive to equip my sov than it is to recruit a squad of troops with equal equipment.
End of Sethai's quote

Again, I agree. It can bankrupt you to try to keep your heroes ahead of the technology curve.

Here's an idea - when I kill and enemy hero or unit, give me his armor and weapons. Make it worth my while. I can equip them if they're good, or sell them if they're bad. Really, if I kill an enemy hero, why can't I take his sword? To the victor go the spoils. (Not to beat a dead horse, but Master of Magic let you do that.)

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Theory and practice are two different things. In all of my games, the books that I have found are all +1 charisma and extra experience. I have found tons of charisma books, and many experience books, (and a few potions that raised essence,) but never a single book that raised any combat attributes.
End of quote

Like i said, i had an extremely powerful hero in a real game thanks to books, so it's not theory. Maybe its because i play larger maps. If you control a large area when you discover new notable locations, you tend to get a large amount of them, and get loads of books of all kinds from them.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 6
i think it's shameful that hp are linked entirely to con, with no level based bonuses. CON should provide a % bonus to base hp tied to level. currently even a well defended sov can be killed with one or two well placed attack spells. it doesn't help that the equipment in the shop makes it more expensive to equip my sov than it is to recruit a squad of troops with equal equipment. i honestly don't understand how anyone makes an effective combat sov. the magic side is a little more effective, but by the late game even that has been made redundant.
End of Sethai's quote

Yep, the Constitution should increase the HP of the Sovereign or a Champion at every new level (perhaps Constitution / 5 HP per level after the first), but if you start with Dexterity 15 and Strength 15 and if you only increase Dexterity and Strength at every new level you can have an attack and defense of 80+ by the late game. 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

The Constitution thing is the main issue. Why do normal units gain HP when they level, whereas a hero has to spend extremely valuable points for the same, and really gets very little out of it? HP should scale with level, and CON should just make it scale faster.

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