A Proposal to Fix Magic Damage

without needlessly complicating the game.

from Elemental Forums

Hey All,

 

Long time follower, first time poster (at least in this particular Elemental forum).  I've been reading up on a lot of the threads regarding balance, particularly about the ones dealing with the use of magic.  I have to agree with the problems and gameplay mechanics that the "main problem" creates.

Here's a brief summary of the problem as I see it:

1) Magic attacks are too weak and too "random."

    A typical magic attack can "roll" between 0 and and the caster's INT plus any bonus from Shards.  Which means that even high level spells can do virtually no damage.  This is compounded by the next problem:

2) Creatures and soldiers can have "huge" defense values.

    Meaning that even high level spell that's taken dozens of turns for you to unlock can still 0 damage.  Not only that, but this FREQUENTLY happens.

 

Now, several people have proposed a fix in that a "Magic Resistance" value would be added to each unit in the game to balance this out.  And I admit, I was grooving right a long with it.  But then I realized something:  One of the qualities that make Elemental a great game is it's ease of use.  Adding another value would needlessly complicate an already complex interface.  That, and it would take a long butt time to add this value into EVERY SINGLE UNIT AND ARMOR AND ITEM IN THE GAME.  Why do we need another value, when the tools to fix this problem are already here?

 

So my proposal:

Every (or perhaps just "most") spells do a minimum amount of "True or Arcane Damage."  You know that cool power Vigilant Demons/Minions have?  That just does straight up 10 damage when used in tactical?  That's what I'm talking about.  Let's just add that kind of damage to most spells add shards (so that the true damage is amplified when you control the right shard), then add damage based on the caster's INT (plus shards again so the actual damage rolls are amplified as well).

Formula would like something like this:

True Damage * Shard Multiplier (This is Minimum Damage Always Done to Creature/Soldier) + Rolled Damage Up to Caster's INT * Shard Multiplier - Defense Roll= Total Damage to Creature/Soldier.

 

This way we create a Dungeons and Dragons Effect while using game concepts that we have all been familiar with since beta and the release.  We can have the effect of those 3d6 spells where the damage YOU KNOW is going to be between 3 and 18.  In this case, though 3 damage ALWAYS being done.  If the creature has a defense value higher than 18 and rolls 18+, then you will still do three damage, and if the creature is unlucky and you have your rabbit's foot on and it rolls a 0 on defense and you roll 18, you will do 21 damage.

This proposal is relatively simple, and could be implemented in an update much sooner than having to recode each item and creature in the game--in this case you just need to go into each tactical spell.  Still a bit daunting, but a big improvement over the current system and without the need to introduce new game concepts post-release and pre-expansion.

What are some thoughts by the community?

elemental
5,618 views 9 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

They have changes in the works already.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Adding in Magic Resistance to EVERY SINGLE WEAPON AND ARMOR is a much better fix in my opinion, seeing as it was a bad move to base it off armor in the first place. Then magic would be perfectly balanced, and they could focus on a lot more. Plus, magic resistance would give a lot more depth to both unit design and deployment of units, in that you would have to factor in whether or not you will be fighting against enemies who can cast, and other such scenarios. All in all it would make the game that much better.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

In regards to Magic Resistance and complexity, I believe a lot of people are confused because things simply aren't explained and aren't intuitive. For instance, I thought that I was just getting unlucky with my magic spells a lot of times, not realizing that armor was causing them to fail. In my case the game would have been LESS complex if Magic Resistance was added, because then I would at least know what is stopping my spells.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

See, adding more game concepts is exactly what they should be avoiding right now, especially since this game has some concepts that aren't detailed.  The reason why games like Elemental, despite their entertainment value, are a niche market is because they are pretty impenetrable.  You have to keep a lot of things going on in your head if you add separate resistance to magic--especially if you do that post-release and pre-expansion.  Original consumers won't be that familiar with it, that and it would make whatever documentation that is accurate even less so.

Right now, you only need to juggle cost and defense, attack, and combat speed, and movement points.  That's already five things.  There is little reason to make that six things, when you can have the desired effect using things that are already in the game.  Not only that but any item and armor that grants magic resistance is probably going to introduce some drawback in attack speed or movement points or maybe even the "straight up" defensive value of the armor to keep it balanced.  So suddenly that's 8 things you are thinking about when designing each unit.  Currently, the original five things have a fairly linear progression (as costs go up so does the benefits of most weapons/armors).  But I don't think that would be possible or even ideal if we add a separate magic value to things.

I would humbly submit, let's just buff magic with a minimum true damage mechanic than make the game more complicated.  It's easier to balance because if you nerf or buff one spell, it might not necessitate nerfing and buffing another, whereas if you do that with armor you will have to make relative nerfs and buffs so that there is a sense of progression as you tech up. 

I've seen several posters say they were confused about why their spells were missing.  I don't want to sound insulting, but it is pretty apparent why they miss.  All damage is mitigated by defense (IT'S NOT ARMOR, IT'S DEFENSE...don't let the icon fool you).  All magic damage (or most of it) is determined by the caster's intelligence.  Those two facts are well documented.  It is also well-known that there is no accuracy in the game (every attack "hits" but just does 0 damage).  I would agree it's counter-intuitive to call it a "Miss."  I would think simply 0 would suffice.  Anyway, whenever one of my spells missed I KNEW it was because I didn't have a high enough intelligence to roll against a unit's defense value.

I would say putting all defense in a single category is streamlined and easy.  The real solution to high defense units being immune to magic is to simply buff magic.  We don't need to re-work the combat system with a new concept post-release.  I wouldn't mind a new concept in an expansion--where in the Elemental Universe's future a material that resists magic is discovered and suddenly it's something to work into armor and such, but right now, I think it just adds something too complex to a system that needs to be simpler already.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Everything you said there is totally contradictory to the whole POINT of a TBS. It's not SUPPOSED to be accessible, it's not SUPPOSED to be streamlined for the casual players out there, it's a STRATEGY game for STRATEGY exprets. Now if it hurts your brain to look at 6 numbers instead of 5, that's none of my concern. From my personal experience, the majority would like a magic resistance stat. It just makes way more sense than using defence for everything, which is both imbalanced and stupid from a practical and gameplay standpoint.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting AlixeniusTheGreat, reply 5
which is both imbalanced and stupid from a practical and gameplay standpoint.
End of AlixeniusTheGreat's quote
Your opinion of Game design might be different from Brads, just saying.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Now, now, there's no reason to get too nasty, we are just talking about a hypothetical solution here.  The main reasons I think this solution is good is because:

 

1) It has the same effect on gameplay as another stat

2) It's easier to do meaning we have it sooner

2a) It's easier to balance because you won't necessarily have to rebalance other things around it too much

2c) The straightforward answer to magic being underpowered is to make magic stronger.  not alter the unit design mechanics.  That's like saying in a fighting game: "The punch move is too weak.  So I made it so the ordinary block doesn't protect against punches, instead you have to hit a different set of buttons to block a punch."  Really, "the" answer is just to make punches more useful.  Here, we just need to make magic more useful, not design different armor.

3) There's nothing fun in a game that is too complex and that goes for so-called experts and casual players.  All experts play casually, and if you can't play casually then the game has a limited life.  I'm not saying that that adding one new stat will ruin the game--sure it will make it deeper.  But as a solution to the magic problem, it's unneccessary, an easier solution is already available to StarDock and every player of all levels could understand that change and adapt to it.

4) Finally, I feel that your objections really stem from the idea that every other Fantasy TBS game has a Magic Resistance stat, but this one doesn't.  That's not a good reason why this game should have said separate stat, especially since they wanted everything you design in a unit to be abstracted into a "defense" rating--I mean, it's been this way since it's alpha, it's not like they had it in then took it out (as far as I know).

Sure most games have three: Magic Resistance, Armor Rating, Dexterity/Evasion bonus.  Those three things were all abstracted into "defense" for EWOM.   Why is this inappropriate?  Why is it "contradictory" to a strategy game to have it remain so?  I mean, if my army performs like crap against a caster dealing out all kinds of arcane damage, I need to think...okay.  I can design some new units with more health so they can hurt him more and win, or maybe go for a unit with a high movement rating and attack value so I can have it kick the crap out of his caster before the others all die or maybe I should go strait to Companies/Raid tech and get a bunch of bowmen and just shoot his caster out.

And those are just three examples of the kinds of thinking and solutions that would go on with the proposed change.  Tell me that's not as deep as saying, "Crap!  I need to put some Magic Resistance rings on my dudes, stat!"

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

i had no idea for a long time that defense came into the equation at all. i don't like the fact as it seems completely unintuitive. leather armour does not stop lightning bolts.

 

i think magic should be undefendable and do what it says on the tin (this is what happens in dnd). then give magic resistance to some higher level creatures, special magic items for units, and as a buff that channellers can cast.

 

damage calculation needs to be done through simple forumlas that involve random and constant elements. this gives variation whilst still assurring some success.

currently a lightning bolt for a INT 14 char with 1 shard is 2 - 28. ie roll within INT then multiply by the number of shards+1

this is clearly far too random.

you'd do much better with

d10 + int points over 10 + 2/shard

so the same character now does between 7 and 16.

so the spell scales and int and shards remain useful. the spell is effective at low levels and still worthwhile later on. however, for late game effectiveness you should need higher level spells with bigger fomulas.

 

roll-within-a-value looks nice on paper, but it is having horrible results. better formulas are needed. you may say people want simple formulas, but i think most people can't be bothered to read any formulas, so if you're going to have one simplicity is of no value. far better to have a formula that delivers on the principles that:

- attributes and shards are important

- magic is worthwhile

- magic is not a turkey shoot

- magic remains somewhat effective throughout the game

- higher level spells are needed for the latter parts of the game.

the current magic system does not.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 8
i had no idea for a long time that defense came into the equation at all. i don't like the fact as it seems completely unintuitive. leather armour does not stop lightning bolts.

 

i think magic should be undefendable and do what it says on the tin (this is what happens in dnd). then give magic resistance to some higher level creatures, special magic items for units, and as a buff that channellers can cast.
End of Sethai's quote
Except that a leather jerkin would in face absorb some of the damage from a spell. The main issue is just the spell damage is too low and its absorbing all of it.