Sovereign balance

...or lack thereof

from Elemental Forums

Let us consider the pre-made sovereigns versus custom ones.  I hope to show here that there is no point in playing a custom sov, and that pre-mades are superior in every way--and that, even among them, balance doesn't seem to exist.  For the sake of my example, I'll only consider the Kindgom sovereigns, but I think this should be sufficient.

I'll lay out the stats of each one here, along with the number of points you'd need to spend to create them in the custom sovereign builder.  A + indicates an additional bonus of unknown value; a ~ is an estimate of value for items I feel somewhat confident in my guesswork with.  My grouping is stats, followed by spellbooks, abilities, and equipment.

Base statistics are laid out as Str/Int/Cha/Dex/Wis/Con.

Relias

12/11/11/12/10/12 (24 points)

4 elemental spellbooks, Life book (12+ points)

Hardy (10 points)

Gnarled Club, Soldier's Cloak (5+ points)

Total: 49++ points.

 

Procipinee

10/15/10/10/15/10 (30 points)

4 elemental spellbooks, Life book (12+ points)

 Meditative (10 points)

Queen's staff-thing (~6 points)

Total: 58+ points

 

Carrodus

13/10/10/12/10/10 (15 points)

4 elemental spellbooks, Life book (12+ points)

Intimidating, Hardy (20 points)

Oak Spear, Carrodus's Coat (15+ points)

Total: 62++ points

 

Irane

12/12/12/15/12/14 (51 points) <-- This is already more than custom sovereigns get!

4 elemental spellbooks, Life book (12+ points)

Daring (3 points)

Oak Spear (15 points)

Total: 81+ points (!!)

 

Markinn

12/12/12/15/12/14 (51 points) <-- These are the same as Irane.

4 elemental spellbooks, Life book (12+ points)

Organized, Naturalist, Ugly (17 points)

Oaken Spear (15 points)

Total: 95+ points (!!!)


Could someone remind me again why I would play a custom sovereign when the existing ones can do anything a custom one can far, far better?  I won't go into whether or not the equipment/ability point values correspond to their values in terms of game balance; I'd just like to indicate that the existing sovereigns are clearly not balanced with custom ones, or even with each other.  And if we say that the values offered here balance out in terms of gameplay (say a high Wis turns out to be more valuable than a high Dex, for example), then why doesn't the customizer reflect these differences?

I would really like to play a custom sovereign, but I can't help but feel cheated by this system.  I feel like when a game allows me to make a character who has to follow certain rules, the ones that already exist should be likewise bound by those rules.  I'd appreciate it if this were addressed--at the very least, please tell me what file I'd need to mod to increase the point cap on custom sovereigns.  To be quite blunt, this tarnishes the concept of Elemental somewhat, since it's clearly beneficial to play as, say, Markinn rather than "myself".

12,092 views 16 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd like to think this is due to the fact that you're basing your information off of the betas and that the actual release will not include such imbalances.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I'll grant you that I'm basing this on the betas, and that I trust it will be fixed for release.  I likewise hope my trust is founded--I'm just pointing it out to make sure, since the reports I've heard about the release haven't mentioned anything about Sovereign stats.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm willing to bet that this doesn't change. That's not even the most major issue. You realize that you can modify any sovereign's file and basically make them invincible. When playing multiplayer we'll just have to be careful who we play with. If you notice your opponent has a lot of abilities and high stats, then don't play with them. That being said, I've buffed my custom sovereign a little so he can compete with the NPC leaders (who also start married and quickly have children... unfair).

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, it's the same way in GalCiv2 whereby the pre-made races included bonuses would entail more points than are available if one were to build them as 'custom' races. 

 

I suspect that a part of this is that with the pre-made races (in GC2) or sovereigns (Ele) is that they include things that you wouldn't otherwise spend points on.  Such as receiving all 4 elemental spellbooks + life, or 15 points for a spear, etc. 

 

From a longer-term perspective some of these don't make sense (you can still only research 1 spell at a time, I presume, thus having 4 spellbooks might be more useful than 1, but may not necessarily result in more spells per-se, for example; or spending 15 points on an 'oak spear' isn't something that anyone might normally do because one could just wait xx turns/months/whatever and buy one with the money being thrown off by their kingdom/empire), so these are 'nice' but not necessarily all that powerful in and of themselves.

 

Additionally, using a pre-gen sovereign eliminates the ability to stack some very powerful combinations.  I have not played the beta, but they are sure to exist (such as the 2 abilities that give +1 movement, plus the ability that allows everything in the stack to keep up with the sovereign's huge movement).

This has actually always bothered me a little bit in GalCiv2, but not enough to go in and modify the various racial abilities as I'd always figured that they were pretty well balanced.  I'd guess the same is true for Elemental and might venture to say that you should play the game a few times through before deciding that things are unbalanced.  I suspect that the pre-gen sovereigns are for people who just want to play and don't yet really know about how to go about designing a specialized sovereign for their particular play style (ice-master, or super-breeding super-recruiter, ugly man-killer, etc, etc).  If you're making a sovereign that is alright at most things but not really great at anything, it doesn't necessarily make him/her better overall than a specifically designed specialist - even if it takes more points to make them not get killed off right away.

 

cheers,

 

-tid242

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Folcik009, reply 3
I'm willing to bet that this doesn't change. That's not even the most major issue. You realize that you can modify any sovereign's file and basically make them invincible. When playing multiplayer we'll just have to be careful who we play with. If you notice your opponent has a lot of abilities and high stats, then don't play with them. That being said, I've buffed my custom sovereign a little so he can compete with the NPC leaders (who also start married and quickly have children... unfair).
End of Folcik009's quote

 

You can't be serious.

With the much touted focus of this game being singleplayer, I would expect nothing less than perfect balance from something as core to the game as sovereign selection and creation. Since multiplayer is taking a backseat in favor of singleplayer, Stardock has greater flexibility in achieving this.

I hope Stardock does not take your approach and justify an imbalanced singleplayer experience with "Yeah well you can just mod it yourself".

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Wait you have not been able to make a custom sovereign that wins against any of them? My custom wipes out 3/4 of the map's opposition w/o every using a built unit  The only time I ever had to go back was the Emp already had a bleedin' dragon.

 

 

 

it's not about total points , it's where you put the point!

 

/seriously is there a way to use a conistent map and have a fewest turns to wipeout the opposition?

 

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I really hope they straighten this out. If not, well, that's why we Mod in XML ;) MY created sovereign will be just as powerful as those pukes will be :) }:)

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

To address various points:

Well, it's the same way in GalCiv2 whereby the pre-made races included bonuses would entail more points than are available if one were to build them as 'custom' races.
End of quote

This is quite possible, but I never noticed it as much.
 

I suspect that a part of this is that with the pre-made races (in GC2) or sovereigns (Ele) is that they include things that you wouldn't otherwise spend points on.  Such as receiving all 4 elemental spellbooks + life, or 15 points for a spear, etc.
End of quote

But then why does a spear cost 1/3 of my starting points?  If it weren't so expensive, maybe I'd buy it.  That doesn't really address the problem.
 

From a longer-term perspective some of these don't make sense (you can still only research 1 spell at a time, I presume, thus having 4 spellbooks might be more useful than 1, but may not necessarily result in more spells per-se, for example; or spending 15 points on an 'oak spear' isn't something that anyone might normally do because one could just wait xx turns/months/whatever and buy one with the money being thrown off by their kingdom/empire), so these are 'nice' but not necessarily all that powerful in and of themselves.
End of quote

Determining what spells you have access to right off the bad has been, in my experience so far (and I've played quite a few games), not game-breaking but significant nevertheless.  And, as I said, if the spear isn't so powerful (I don't think it is), why does it cost so much?
 

Additionally, using a pre-gen sovereign eliminates the ability to stack some very powerful combinations.  I have not played the beta, but they are sure to exist (such as the 2 abilities that give +1 movement, plus the ability that allows everything in the stack to keep up with the sovereign's huge movement).
End of quote

I'll grant you that one, certainly.

This has actually always bothered me a little bit in GalCiv2, but not enough to go in and modify the various racial abilities as I'd always figured that they were pretty well balanced.  I'd guess the same is true for Elemental and might venture to say that you should play the game a few times through before deciding that things are unbalanced.  I suspect that the pre-gen sovereigns are for people who just want to play and don't yet really know about how to go about designing a specialized sovereign for their particular play style (ice-master, or super-breeding super-recruiter, ugly man-killer, etc, etc).  If you're making a sovereign that is alright at most things but not really great at anything, it doesn't necessarily make him/her better overall than a specifically designed specialist - even if it takes more points to make them not get killed off right away.
End of quote

But consider: for specialist caster, we have Procipinee (max stats in both casting stats and all elemental spellbooks, in addition to a staff.)  For warriors, we have Irane and Markinn.  I didn't look at the Fallen sovereigns while going through this, I'll admit, but I suspect that they could fill in many of the roles mentioned to a similar degree.


 

Wait you have not been able to make a custom sovereign that wins against any of them? My custom wipes out 3/4 of the map's opposition w/o every using a built unit  The only time I ever had to go back was the Emp already had a bleedin' dragon.

it's not about total points , it's where you put the point!
End of quote

I've never lost to the computer with my custom sovereigns; this is partially because the computers in the beta are as dumb as bricks.  I've played quite a few games, thank you, but I fail to see what my personal ability has to do with this.

And yes, the location of the points is equally important, but, as I've mentioned above, pre-made sovereigns can fill most of the roles you'd make custom sovereigns for, and you'll get other bonuses.  They can't have certain specific combinations like a custom sovereign can, but this seems akin to saying that, in D&D, one player rolls 3d6 straight down for stats and can assign them wherever they like, but another rolls 5d6 and puts them in the order rolled.  The first may be more specialized, but the other has a far higher overall basis of abilities and is just generally better.  They might not be as good in one specific area, but they'll have stats that won't be too much worse in any one and will have bonuses on others that the lower-powered character couldn't dream of.

Specialization tips the scales toward custom sovereigns.  I will not dispute this, and I will admit that it is certainly worth something.  I still say, however, that total points count toward equally as much.

 

SEVERAL EDITS LATER: Quotes are formatted properly now.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting marlowwe, reply 5

You can't be serious.

With the much touted focus of this game being singleplayer, I would expect nothing less than perfect balance from something as core to the game as sovereign selection and creation. Since multiplayer is taking a backseat in favor of singleplayer, Stardock has greater flexibility in achieving this.

I hope Stardock does not take your approach and justify an imbalanced singleplayer experience with "Yeah well you can just mod it yourself".
End of marlowwe's quote

I do think that they could have balanced AI players a little... and maybe they did, although I doubt it based on the recent stories. The AI players start married to what I believe is a randomly generated NPC spouse. I've never seen any unique text, classes, or abilities for an enemy's spouse... they are always the same. They also usually have children within 20-30 turns. The same goes for minor civilizations. It's a small oversight but I do hope they'll fix it for either release or future patches.

Regarding online sovereigns: I look at it as a testament to the game's moddability. While I agree the default sovereigns should be a little more carefully balanced you cannot really have this mod-able of a game and also maintain proper balance online. We'll just have to be careful with who we play with.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Folcik009, reply 9

I do think that they could have balanced AI players a little... and maybe they did, although I doubt it based on the recent stories. The AI players start married to what I believe is a randomly generated NPC spouse. I've never seen any unique text, classes, or abilities for an enemy's spouse... they are always the same. They also usually have children within 20-30 turns. The same goes for minor civilizations. It's a small oversight but I do hope they'll fix it for either release or future patches.

Regarding online sovereigns: I look at it as a testament to the game's moddability. While I agree the default sovereigns should be a little more carefully balanced you cannot really have this mod-able of a game and also maintain proper balance online. We'll just have to be careful with who we play with.
End of Folcik009's quote

I'm hoping when it comes to online play that they'll find a way to check stat totals for Sovs starting the game and auto kick any "Super Powered" Sovs to keep the matches "fair". That could be hoping for a little too much at this point though. Either way for my version of Elemental I'll be modding out most of the Sovs that come with the game and modding in my own Sovs and Factions from various Fantasy Literature sources.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

On another note, Sauron was an overpowering Darklord, too.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tid242, reply 4
Well, it's the same way in GalCiv2 whereby the pre-made races included bonuses would entail more points than are available if one were to build them as 'custom' races. 

 

I suspect that a part of this is that with the pre-made races (in GC2) or sovereigns (Ele) is that they include things that you wouldn't otherwise spend points on.  Such as receiving all 4 elemental spellbooks + life, or 15 points for a spear, etc. 

 

From a longer-term perspective some of these don't make sense (you can still only research 1 spell at a time, I presume, thus having 4 spellbooks might be more useful than 1, but may not necessarily result in more spells per-se, for example; or spending 15 points on an 'oak spear' isn't something that anyone might normally do because one could just wait xx turns/months/whatever and buy one with the money being thrown off by their kingdom/empire), so these are 'nice' but not necessarily all that powerful in and of themselves.

 

Additionally, using a pre-gen sovereign eliminates the ability to stack some very powerful combinations.  I have not played the beta, but they are sure to exist (such as the 2 abilities that give +1 movement, plus the ability that allows everything in the stack to keep up with the sovereign's huge movement).

This has actually always bothered me a little bit in GalCiv2, but not enough to go in and modify the various racial abilities as I'd always figured that they were pretty well balanced.  I'd guess the same is true for Elemental and might venture to say that you should play the game a few times through before deciding that things are unbalanced.  I suspect that the pre-gen sovereigns are for people who just want to play and don't yet really know about how to go about designing a specialized sovereign for their particular play style (ice-master, or super-breeding super-recruiter, ugly man-killer, etc, etc).  If you're making a sovereign that is alright at most things but not really great at anything, it doesn't necessarily make him/her better overall than a specifically designed specialist - even if it takes more points to make them not get killed off right away.

 

cheers,

 

-tid242
End of tid242's quote

 

Intresting post, And in General I agree as Power Combos were the way to go in galciv2. HOWEVER, Markinn and Irane are so much more powerful than anything a custom sovereign could come close to that its downright absurd. Even discounting the points for starting weapons, and assuming that their stat distros are non-optimal, they already breach the custom sovereign limit with their  attribute assignments....thats just nuts. Im assuming stardock will fix this either in 0day or gold. If they havent it shouldnt be hard to fix ourselves. Im thinking that 70 points would be roughly appropriate. That would give you enough points to match the strongest sovereigns fairly well. ( im taking some points off assuming that a human will be able to powercombo and optimize better)  I have virtually no experience actually playing the game though.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

This post gave me an Awesome idea for a game to set up.

 

Five players in the map. Myself and 3 AI in a team. Then one other AI, an XML-customised sovereign. This AI sovereign will have an insane set of abilities. He shall be Fallen and Empire. Myself and my AI team-mate shall be human and Kingdom. Fighting against the insane powers of "Dread Lord Norbert" or whatever he shall be called. Anybody else think this sounds like a cool idea for a sandbox? :-)

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Rincewind57, I like that idea. I'd play it! I used to do similar things with Age of Empires, Command and Conquer, or even Civilization in which one player (AI) or civilization was much more powerful then everyone else and we'd team up on him. It was also fun in multiplayer. In AoE me and some friends got stomped by a highest level difficulty AI guy but it was a glorious battle.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

a note on creating a custom sovereign for editing

if you lower all 6 stats to 5 you get 140 points

 

this allows you to stackup as many of the other options as you want

taking more than 3 abilities does not show up nicely in the in game character report

 

after saving your sovereign it appears MyGames\Elemental\Units

you can then edit the stats to almost anything

of course their is the temptation to make your sovereign more overpowered than the stock sovereigns