What makes MOM/MOO unique are the powerful spells/tech

This is the key to 4X game design

I tried playing many other video games which attempted to replace Master or orion/magic and they all seemed to have failed. I tried Age of wonders, heroes of might and magic, and galactic civilisation and they all seem to have missed their target. After analysing master of magic/orion's game design I have realised that what makes this game unique and addictive is the fact that the spells and technologies are very powerful.

For example, galactic civilization you devellop tons of technologies where 1/3 of them only has the purpose of letting you accessing other technologies and the other technologies gives meaningless bonus like +10% to hit in combat. This has the effect of making tech development boring and almost useless. What does it changes if you have +10% to hit, it won't gives me a that much interesting edge over my ennemy which I try to overcome.

In master of orion, technologies has important impacts over the game which increase the need to develop certain technologies and gives you access to some "punch-through" elements to overcome your ennemy. Many times in MOO, I refused to trade some technologies because that would have mean giving an advantage to another player who could become my ennemy or who could trade it around to other players.

Now about elemental, from what I have heard, there is a technology system split in different fields that you can upgrade and eventually gain bonus to production and other things. This is fine, as long that it is not the primary technology system. The structure is fine as well, it does not give you tomsof tech to learn and there is no tree to analyse.

In a game like master of magic, the primary technology system are the spell. This is the elements that should be very powerful in the game. What makes MOM fun is that the players have a feeling of power and control over the game. There are other games like age of wonders which does not give you this feeling because the spells are too weak.

Also, the fact that MOM takes place in the whole world, rather than a portion of the world |(like in age of wonders) also gives a feeling of superiority when you actually cast a spell which can affect the whole world.

So in overall, if your tech system gives bonus here and there, it's OK. But make sure your spell gives more than bonus, like breaking rules, allowing new actions, OR give really considerable powerful bonus. 

It's OK to have a progression, at the beginning the game, the spells whould not be that powerfull. But at the end you should have spell powerful enought to give you a weight in negociation with other players (ex: if you don't stop attacking me, I cast armageddon). You can also increase the area of effect rather than the effect. Ex: Flame Sword: Gives a +3 damage to a unit. Later on, you can enchant all units in battle and near the end all units in the world.

 

 

 

 

9,579 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top

Wow, larienna, that touches a nerve for me.  I, too, have been put off by endless, useless, additions to tech trees, especially the ones that lead to nothing more than another tech to research.  Civ4, GalCiv2 and SE5 come quickly to mind, but they are not the only ones.  If Elementals falls into that trap, I'm done with SD. 

Reply #2 Top

I know exactly what you mean - HUGE tech tree with tons of meaningless techs. Of course, one could argue that this +10% to attack, and +1 to sensors can be really devastating, but lets be honest: such techs seemed like space fillers. I agree, we have to have access to critical technologies. Let one tech take even 30 days, but let it give me some significant advantage. For now, the Elemental is on the crossroads, basing on the tech trees. Most techs are quite unique and provide some significant bonuses, but there are a couple of them (City defenses, food gain etc.) that have a few of those +10/+20 things.

To get down to nitty-gritty, now in Elemental the tech tree isn't bad, but it will probably need a few tweaks to make the techs meaningful enough.

Reply #3 Top

Frogboy seems to be very much in favor of "big" spells; as in, with a higher level spell, you can lay waste to an entire swathe of land. It looks like that's going to be an integral part of the end game. 

This is fine, as long that it is not the primary technology system.
End of quote

I don't know quite what you mean by this...

Reply #4 Top

During this discussion, remember that larienna is a person not participating in the beta.  (Evidenced by the fact that she says "from what I have heard")

This means that larienna hasn't actually played the game, and therefore doesn't know whether or not it is fun with the research and tech tree as currently designed.

What she means by "primary technology system" is probably that she feels that the current implementation would be ok if the spells work differently.  This is not a worry, since it has been stated by the devs that technology and spell research serve different purposes and will therefore work differently.

Reply #5 Top

I agree with everything larienna has said. Researching +10% movement range over and over again gets pretty dull. The variety and potency of the spells in Master of Magic is what made it so much fun to play.

Reply #6 Top

During this discussion, remember that larienna is a person not participating in the beta.  (Evidenced by the fact that she says "from what I have heard")

You are absolutely right, I have not touched the beta yet since it is not accessible. I would be glad to preorder when it's available (but after december 1st)

I am trying to create various threads in order to give design idea for Elemental because I tried myself to make a board game out of master of magic and I had to face a lot of things in the design process that could be good experience for the design of elemental.

Reply #7 Top

I agree with larienna. One think that contributed to making Galactic Civilisations 2 rather dull (even though I have poured a considerable amount of time in that game) is that there are no ""special" technologies. Everything is about bonuses, or a slightly better new improvement. I know that some people love number crunching, but personally I find this "math warfare", whereby your numbers are pitted against the enemie's, to be incredibly dull. What I would like to see are major technological turning points, technologies that unlock something new and exciting that was previously out of your reach. It seems, however, that elemental seems to be on the right way for this, with major technologies that unlock new possibilities, and can then be improved with further research.

Reply #8 Top

Agree, except that the other thing that made MOM special (and better than MOO) was the ultra-powerful heroes, Torin, Warrax, Roland, etc.

Reply #9 Top

"Agree, except that the other thing that made MOM special (and better than MOO) was the ultra-powerful heroes, Torin, Warrax, Roland, etc."

YES!!!!!!

Reply #10 Top

Well, what made Master of Orion 2 great was that each combat tech gave you both a bonus to the damage of pre-existing weapons (in the form of weapon special ability addons like continuous fire or rapid fire) in addition to new weapons that had different functions (lasers were a basic attack weapon, fusion weapons did consistent damage, neutron beams killed marines and did damage, graviton beams did extra damage once shields were breached.)  So I think techs that give progressive efficiency bonuses is a good idea, but as long as it is accompanied with unique abilities that change and expand your strategic options.

Reply #11 Top

While I agree with pretty much everything said here, I think Elemental will be able to get away with less of the "research this for BRAND NEW STUFF!" and more "Improves: blah blah blah" in the Technology tree, provided that the Magic system is as robust as it seems like it will be (Volcanoes, anyone?).

In fact, I'd hate to see Technology trump Magic in this "universe", since the whole point is harnessing the essence of magic to revitalize the world.

 

And as far as heroes go... I think Stardock will be hard pressed to make it to release without some pretty cool Heroes.

Reply #12 Top

Demiansky, I still play MOO2 and love it.  But for me, what makes it great is the ability to upgrade individual ships.  Send 'em to a planet with a starbase, make any changes you want (well, almost any) and a couple of turns later you've got a brand new, up-to-date ship.  So you can, for instance, have a bunch of curisers all the same size but with many different capabilities.  The possibilities are endless.  There is a similar, but more limited, individual ship upgrade function in Space Empires 4, but not in Sword of the Stars - and I miss it.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting JEllis2, reply 12
Demiansky, I still play MOO2 and love it.  But for me, what makes it great is the ability to upgrade individual ships.  Send 'em to a planet with a starbase, make any changes you want (well, almost any) and a couple of turns later you've got a brand new, up-to-date ship.  So you can, for instance, have a bunch of curisers all the same size but with many different capabilities.  The possibilities are endless.  There is a similar, but more limited, individual ship upgrade function in Space Empires 4, but not in Sword of the Stars - and I miss it.
End of JEllis2's quote

Well, my favorite part of MOO2 was definately the diversity of ships you could have in a fleet, as you say.  You could create anything from a hit-and-run fleet loaded with one shot missiles, an endurance fleet loaded with heavy armor and reusable weapons, or a specialized fleet with smaller "point defense" vessels that zipped in and out of missile formations to defend lightly armored by heavily armed "archer" vessels that fired on capital ships and planetary vessels from afar.  Once, I even made a "pirate" fleet of ships to immobilize and capture enemy ships (the enthralled vessels would then be used as front line shock troops in coming battles or decommisioned for cash back at a starbase).  I would love to see that kind of diversity and depth in Elemental.

Reply #14 Top

I also agree with pretty much everything said here. I loved MOO2 and MOM, play MOO2 even now sometimes, played a lot of galciv, galciv2 and sins but found something missing. I play and come back to Sword of the Stars more often than to galciv2 because of these key moments of having or lacking a tech. "Just wait till i get fusion." "Oh no i didn't get point defense in my tech tree." "Bow before my mighty AI controlled pulsed graviton beam antimatter dreadnoughts!! (insert evil maniacal laugh here)."

These are moments i missed in galciv2 and had in abundance in MOO2. Now i do understand we are talking fantasy not SF here, but the concept is universal imo. Let there be key technologies in different trees which bring significant advantages so i have to decide what when to get. Let there be moments of: "Burn in my Walls of Fire you puny humans." "Bow before my mighty dragon", "try to out-research my enlightened archmage led wizardry academies of metamagic, i dare you!" or simply "What do you mean where is your capital? This volcano was here all along. Would i swindle you?"

These are moments you remember. Getting +10% spell damage, not so much.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting tenchifew, reply 14
I also agree with pretty much everything said here. I loved MOO2 and MOM, play MOO2 even now sometimes, played a lot of galciv, galciv2 and sins but found something missing. I play and come back to Sword of the Stars more often than to galciv2 because of these key moments of having or lacking a tech. "Just wait till i get fusion." "Oh no i didn't get point defense in my tech tree." "Bow before my mighty AI controlled pulsed graviton beam antimatter dreadnoughts!! (insert evil maniacal laugh here)."

These are moments i missed in galciv2 and had in abundance in MOO2. Now i do understand we are talking fantasy not SF here, but the concept is universal imo. Let there be key technologies in different trees which bring significant advantages so i have to decide what when to get. Let there be moments of: "Burn in my Walls of Fire you puny humans." "Bow before my mighty dragon", "try to out-research my enlightened archmage led wizardry academies of metamagic, i dare you!" or simply "What do you mean where is your capital? This volcano was here all along. Would i swindle you?"

These are moments you remember. Getting +10% spell damage, not so much.
End of tenchifew's quote

I agree 100 percent.  Watching your new heavy mount graviton beam shred enemy ships to bits was what made games like MOO2 memorable.