GC3 indepth Part 2: The Economy

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This is a continuation of the analysis I started in my previous post. In this topic I'm going to talk about more fundamental areas of the game. Like I said before, I believe that GC2 is one of the best strategy games ever made, but it has some fundamental problems that prevent it from satisfying it's players or from reaching out to new players. The two biggest problems I see in these areas are.

 

1 – The game's economy is unintuitive and seemingly, almost designed to lure new players into pitfalls

 

2 – Too many gameplay elements feel tacked on, unincorporated, underdeveloped or immersion breaking. At best this makes them annoying, at worst they can unbalancing, unfair, fun destroying or just make the player guffaw. In this bracket I include the UP, minor races, mega events and alignment screens.

 

 

I will deal with the economy in this post. The rest I will touch on in another topic. The only prior experience I have with TBSs is from Civ, Alpha Centauri & the total war games. When I first encountered the economy of GC2, I assumed it was more developed, realistic and dynamic than these games. Now I am certain that it is not. The very existence of a production slider encourages the player to think it is alright to run an inefficient economy, never mind the fact that it starts at a position below 100%. The empire wide tax system is inefficient when governing many different colonies, at the same time as requiring constant tweaking to squeeze out every possible bc.

 

Although I initially thought it simplistic, in retrospect I believe that the Total War games have a much better economic system than GalCiv's. Each colony (or settlement in that case) is taxed separately, but instead of an 0 to 100% range of levels, there are only 5 levels of taxation. With this sort of system, not only is the player able to get a population growth & loyalty vs. income balance appropriate for each settlement, but he also only has to change taxation occasionally: because it is not an option to tweak taxation by tiny increments, the player is not expected to compete with the computer's level of micro management and therefore has MORE FUN PLAYING THE GAME. Best of all, a governor can be set to automatically tax as much as possible without causing population decrease or dangerously low approval. This is how tax should be done in GalCiv, and it has plenty of historical strategic precedent: new frontiers are taxed less to encourage population growth so that more money can be made in the future from that larger population.

 

The second aspect of the economy is then how this money is spent. The entire concept of centrally controlled production is both absurd and confusing. It leads to ridiculous scenarios like the strategy of only building either labs or factories, then using the production sliders and production focus to squeeze out some of the other kind of production. The planetary focus tool was added to add a method of trying to squeeze the square peg of centrally controlled production into the round hole of the varying local needs of planets. All it does is highlight the fundamental flaws in the system.

 

Some have suggested replacing the four sliders with three, which you use to determine the percentage of the potential production of each type individually. This would be an improvement, but it still leaves flaws. It is still too centralised and inefficient. More importantly though, it is still confusing to new players – they can still end up backrupted by the cost of maintaining their own, redundant buildings.

 

The two basic principles of the new economy should be these

 

1 – It is never a bad idea to research any technology.

2 – It is rarely, if never a bad idea to build any building.

 

There are just others it would have been better to choose.

 

Has no one ever thought about why we pay for production, and then use that production to pay for ships and buildings? Wouldn't it be better if we just paid for the ships in cash in the first place, and cut out the entire concept of production? This is what we already do with upgrading ships. Or to put it another way, did you never find it annoying that you couldn't upgrade your ships for free using your planets production?

 

How about modelling it this way: Ships cost a certain amount to buy, and can be built anywhere with a ship yard. Buildings can be bought anywhere. The need for industrial buildings should be simply to reduce the time taken for these projects to reasonable durations. A slider on each planet then determines the balance on that world between the ongoing military and social projects. Ie, what do you want done the fastest? A second class of buildings can be added that reduces the cost of projects when they are built on that world.

 

Maintenance should be scrapped almost across the board (EDIT: building maintenance, sorry guys). Think about the game as is. If the currently optimum system is run at 100% production, then aren't the costs of production and the cost of maintenance basically the same thing, unless you're being an idiot and deliberately being inefficient?

 

A rethink is also necessary for colony hubs. Does Nasa has to pay maintenance for the flag on the moon? It's ridiculous that one has to pay potentially huge amounts (for the early game) for even the smallest claim on a planet. This is an even better idea when you think that, at present, you are forcing the player to pay for stuff (hub production and research) that they may not even want.

 

This is, more or less the way that the Total War games work in the campaign mode. Units are simply bought with cash and there is no building maintenance. This manages not to be a problem, even though you buy units in TW just as often you build ships in GalCiv.

 

The only slider that should remain in the game is for research spending. This should be moved into the research screen. There is then no need whatsoever for any economy sliders (taxation has already been moved to a world by world system). Your spending on research will remain the same unless you decide to increase it. You can build all the research buildings you like but your spending will never go up unless you ask it to. Building new buildings just increases the maximum you may spend. Research production may change due to bonuses, but the spending never will, unless the players asks it to.

 

The end result of this is that it is impossible to end up with a negative income by doing nothing. The player can colonize as many planets and build as many factories as he likes. The only way he can end up with an negative income is if he is paying too much ship upkeep, or spending too much on research. If he wants to build ships and buildings, he must maintain a decent amount at all times in the treasury with which to buy them.

 

Like I said before, colonizing a planet or constructing a building should never be a bad idea. The strategic depth should come from choosing which planets and which buildings. If you colonize a crappy planet, you will have to keep tax at minimum for that world just to stop the population growth becoming negative.

 

We now have a system which is completely intuitive and almost impossible for a new player to balls up. At the same time, we have lost absolutely no strategic depth. No aspect of the difference between races and technology that we have already cannot be modelled with this simpler system. It will be easier for the player to use and easier to write AI for. It will free up time time spent micromanaging production and colony focus, and allow that time to be spent on more fun stuff, like moreinteresting fleet dynamics, or dealing with more varied and interesting planets.

 

Like I said before, if you colonize a bad planet you will make a lot less money because you will be taxing them very little, just to keep the population growth in the black. Population growth and limit should be modeled as it is in the total war games. A list of factors improving and reducing population growth is listed. These include tax, buildings, technology and the planet's natural habitability. The bigger the positives are then the negatives, the faster the population grows. As population grows, new factors appear to model overcrowding. There is thus no artificial cap. Population continues to grow until an equilibrium is reached, as in nature. This makes sense

 

Questions I foresee:

Q: What if I want to rush build something?

A: You have a slider for each planet that allows you to shift production time from buildings to ships. You can move this. An equivalent to buy it now can be added that reduces the remaining time by half. No amount of money can make a building appear in a week anyway.

 

Q: What about auto upgrading buildings? Won't this have to be turned off if the player needs to pay from the treasury? Won't doing that all manually be a chore?

A: Yes, auto upgrade must be turned off. A lot of people have told me that they play this way anyway. If you want to reduce the amount of building orders, give the player an option on researching the tech to upgrade all of that type. I foresee a colony system where having many building of the same type on one world is a rarity.

 

Q: Won't tweaking military/social sliders and the tax level on each world individually be a chore?

Less than it is now. This info can be shown in a convenient colony management screen like we have now. One problem we won't have is the player having to turn off production focus on their colonies once all buildings are finished. There will no longer be a colony focus. If there are no jobs of one type, the slider automatically moves to favor what there is. If there are none of any type, it's not a problem because you're not paying for the production anyway. All it does is reduce the time. There is no way of turning manufacturing points into research points. That was a ridiculous system that ended up in strategies like the all-factory approach.

 

Q: What about ship upgrades?

A: To upgrade a ship you move it to a planet and select to upgrade it. You pay a fraction of the price. A job is then created on the planet, just like building a new ship. The idea of upgrading ships in the middle of space was stupid anyway.

 

Q: What if a job reaches the front of the queue but there's no money to pay for it?

A: Then it doesn't start until there is. A warning is sent to the player that he has jobs that can't start. He then has to reduce research, decommission some ships or increase taxes so that he can get more in the treasury next turn.

 

Q: Won't designing and balancing all this be a huge task?

A: Yes. It is a new game though. If there weren't huge tasks that needed doing, we wouldn't be asking for sequel to GalCiv2. The economy is the biggest thing wrong with this game. I believe this sytem will be easier to design though, than the current one has been.

18,754 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

Interesting points on the economic front. The one issue with the colony hub is how do you reflect the fact that initially a colony is draining on the overall economy until the colony itself becomes self sustaining. One thought (based slightly on how SoaSE handles the issue) might be to penalize the colony as a whole in turns of money and production drained from the overall economy until the planet's population reaches a certain level as well as having certain structures included. Maybe, a set of upgrades representing general impovements to the planet could be made to the colony hub  representing getting the essential infrastructure up to a base level of self sufficiency.

Reply #2 Top

One could argue that these costs are included in the cost of the colony module. Or perhaps the player may initially have to set negative taxes on some colonies to encourage growth - ie, paying people to go there. If we can stay away from absolute building maintenance, i think that is a good thing for everyone. While that might honestly be the best way of modelling it, I think it would be an unwelcome compromise, having worked otherwise arranged a maintenance-free system. Thanks for mentioning that though; it honestly hadn't occurred to me.

Reply #3 Top

Why be limited to one standard colony module?  Just allow ships to carry multiple colony modules, and allow Researching of more advanced modules (same capacity and price, but smaller.)

That way, you could either seed a bunch of new planets with one module each, and let them take a long time to develop.  Or you could give one planet as big a jump-start as you can afford.

Reply #4 Top

The economy of Galciv 2 is easy to understand. I have understood it perhaps 8 or 10 times, only to discover each time that I don't understand it.

So, I'm not understanding it again, but I could understand it again easily enough if I just read a few more forum posts and perhaps a few more essays. No problem.

But I seem to see a pattern here and so I give up.

Reply #6 Top

very long post. but nice thoughts and tips by the way.

Reply #7 Top

Well, it all looks good, except for the thing about elminating mainenance: I fear that that would make the rich-get-richer problem worse by removing one of the diminishing-return factors.

Reply #8 Top

Some have suggested replacing the four sliders with three, which you use to determine the percentage of the potential production of each type individually. This would be an improvement, but it still leaves flaws. It is still too centralised and inefficient. More importantly though, it is still confusing to new players – they can still end up backrupted by the cost of maintaining their own, redundant buildings.
End of quote

This was my recommendation which I repeat here for those that didn't see it, "I recommend a simpler UI with only 3 sliders vs 4, that would allow the AI and novice players to get 100% output. The simplier UI lowers the learning curve for new players without dumbing down the game and helps level the playing field between experienced players and the AI, since the AI will never use advanced strategies like the all factories, all labs, or switch strategy."

Researching with Factories and Building with Labs is Crazy!

Maintenance should be scrapped almost across the board. Think about the game as is. If the currently optimum system is run at 100% production, then aren't the costs of production and the cost of maintenance basically the same thing, unless you're being an idiot and deliberately being inefficient?
End of quote

In real life everything has a maintence cost (every home or car owner knows that all to well). In order to buy things you need to have someone with something to sell. In the game we should only be able to buy and sell with the other majors and minor players. I do think we should be able to set our planets to produce things in half the time at double the cost (i.e., 4 times the spend rate, for extra labor shifts, overtime, etc.) For example, instead of completing something (a building or ship) in 6 months and at a cost of 100BC we can complete it in 3 months at a cost of 200BC. Upgrading of ships should only take place at one of your planets with a shipyard and the cost in time and money should only be based on what is being replaced.

I would prefer the term military spending be replaced with shipyard spending since your shipyards can produce non-combat ships (colony, freighters, etc.).

Each turn is one week and there are 48 turns in a year instead of 52. I would make each turn be one month and have elections/UP meetings every 2 or 4 years.

The player can colonize as many planets and build as many factories as he likes. The only way he can end up with an negative income is if he is paying too much ship upkeep, or spending too much on research. If he wants to build ships and buildings, he must maintain a decent amount at all times in the treasury with which to buy them.
End of quote

Many a company has gone bankrupt because they grew to fast.

Reply #9 Top

1.  I would keep maint. cost because it is the only way to control overall fleet size in the later stages of games.

2.  I am indifferent about how taxation is handled.  I have played Rome TW and this game a bunch.  Both have their pluses and minuses.  I tend to just never really jack my taxes to the point that I am right on the edge each turn of making everyone mad.

3.  I agree that the handling of production should be different to discourage people from building factory only planets and research only planets.  My suggestions would be as follows.

-Ship production is done only at starbases.  All production starbases and all factories are linked together by a network of inter-empire transports that are visible much like trading ships are once a route is established except the player does not pay for them.  They simply exist.

-The production cost and time at each starbase is determined by the distance which it is located from your factories with a penalty that increases the further away from your factories it is, the less efficient it as at building.  For example a starbase located within a week of dense system with lots of factories would see only 10% wasted on transport so the cost would be the build cost plus 10%.  A starbase located on your frontiers that is used mostly for defense might have 50% of anything you build there wasted on transport.  The idea is to have each empire have more of a core and a frontier, rather than just be the evenly spaced messes they are now.

-I would keep the sliders but only keep the military/starship production vs social production one.  You could use the global settings or change them by planet as needed.

-Maint. would be handled much the same way as ship construction to more realistically model the cost of maintaining fleets far from home.  All ships would draw maintenence from the nearest starbase.  The further away they are, the less efficient this process is and the more it cost.  Again there would be supply ships that appear in the same way that trade ships do once a route is established.  The idea here is to make ships on the frontiers and ships moving out in an invasion haver a higher maint. cost than those sitting at home which is as it should be.  Again we want to create empires with strong cores that take a planed campaign to overcome.  Taking my whole fleet of battleships 10 sectors across the map to fight someone in their home system becomes a much larger risk.  I spend a lot of money and I am fighting the enemy where they presumably concentrate their best and most expensive ships to keep maint. cost down.  It creates a much larger advantage for someone fighting in their home territory.  All of these are good things in my view.

-Now that we have added supply lines for both starbases and ships I open up a whole new set of game strategy.  Those little ships we just had the computer create to move supplies around can be attacked.  By doing so I can increase my enemies cost for maintenence and decrease the efficiency of his production.  Again, this is a good thing, it makes for a much richer gameplay experience and it makes it very much more difficult to just bypass frontier post and make for the biggest and best planets in your enemies empire.  Those little ships you left there are no threat to your fleet, but they can make a mess of the host of unarmed supply ships that would have to follow each fleet and supply each starbase.

-Now I can also blockade planets and starbases.  Since they have to send stuff off I can now cut them off from supply.  Now my huge fleets can do something, even if I don't have troop transports around.  Or if I just want to make a point but don't really want the planet.  Again, we have added a lot to the gameplay.

-Pirates and Privateers now have something to do other than attack trade routes.  They can really cripple you if you don't control them rather than be a nusiance.

Reply #10 Top

Mascrinthus; I have been reading your posts, and they largely inspired a lot of this topic.

I like to think of it this way: What happens if you expand too quickly and your production costs you more than you can afford? You lower your production slider, of course. This is exactly what happens in my system, if you remove the idea of paying for production. The only difference is that, instead of the player stopping paying for production, they simply stop paying for ships and buildings instead, or reduce their research spending.

Some people have suggested that the production slider be locked at 100%. This is one of the first pieces of advice we give new players who ask for tips on the economy. Once you do this (and if you are using the more efficient all-factories approach) then maintenance costs and their production costs are basically the same thing. They are both equally pointless middle men.

My system contains all the pitfalls of expanding too fast that the game currently does. If you spend all your money building superfluous factories, you won't have enough left to spend on ships to build with them and your money has effectively gone to waste. This is completely analagous to having to cut your production. The difference is that the player isn't punished twice with the additional burden on maintenance. Like I said, maintenance and production are the same thing once production is at 100%. By removing production, we have essentially forced the player to operate efficiently. We have basically automatically told all new players the secret of running an efficient economy, without needing to come to the forums.

The same goes for colonies. Expand too quickly and you'll spend all your money on colony ships and having nothing for buildings or research. You make less out of the same population on an undeveloped world than you would have at home. Instead of paying maintenance, they just make less in taxes.

Assuming that any government would operate on this basic principle is pretty obvious. I mean, I'm the emperor of Earth but I don't have any financial advisers on hand to tell me that there's no point in building factories to build ships we can't afford?

 

Everything has a maintenance cost, that's for sure, but the government doesn't pay the running costs of Boeing's factories. Boeing does. And if the US government want Boeing to build them a plane, they pay them to do so. This is how my system works. Similarly, if you add an option to rush production by paying double for the ship, you still have an equivalent to buy-it-now.

 

The concept of paying for production and working out how the sliders work is IMHO the biggest hurdle for new players to cross. We spend hours tweaking sliders chasing the dream of an efficient economy. When we work out what the answer is (the all factory approach), it turns out it's rather lame. By ditching production, you give the player the basic secret to running a decent (not great) economy and hard wire it into the game. A great economy comes from choosing what to build, where and when.

 

Ditch military & Social Production = Less time tweaking sliders and more time playing the game.

Reply #11 Top

Everything has a maintenance cost, that's for sure, but the government doesn't pay the running costs of Boeing's factories. Boeing does. And if the US government want Boeing to build them a plane, they pay them to do so. This is how my system works.
End of quote
This can easily be explained by the fact that the factories in this game a re government-run, which would make sense since they manufacture specifically for the government. Besides, as I said before, mainenance costs are one of the few ways currently in existance to keep the steamroller effect in some sort of check.

Reply #12 Top

Holy crap. I never seen anything as good as this. Good job.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 7
Well, it all looks good, except for the thing about elminating mainenance: I fear that that would make the rich-get-richer problem worse by removing one of the diminishing-return factors. Mainenance costs are one of the few ways currently in existance to keep the steamroller effect in some sort of check.
End of Scoutdog's quote

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but I'd like to hear you elaborate on it.

As far as i can see, maintenance:production ratio (and therefore the effective cost of production) goes down with successive generations of factory, so if anything there's a law of increasing returns.

If what you mean instead is that, as an empire grows (some regions have undeveloped planets, some want to focus on military production) then it becomes increasingly difficult to get a production balance that serves everyone, then you are basically arguing in favor of a very artificial limitation - there is no reason that, realistically, an empire couldn't choose to use as much or as little of any planet's production of any type as they chose. If you are that attached to an artificial limitation though, other artifical limitations can always be thought up to take it's place.

The game needs penalties to hinder the largest factions to keep the game challenging towards the end on that i agree, but there are many ways of achieving this and i don't think that this is the best one. Perhaps morale penalties for bigger factions? Or beaurocracy costs?

 

Or perhaps you meant something else and i'm totally missing the mark?

Reply #14 Top

For maintenance I would at least have it for Military Transports and colony ships ie feed the people and keep the ships in running order. Also those transports should have the highest maintenance costs but not to high...Yes you can put people to sleep and freeze them. With maintenance this would help slow the steam rolling affect...

Maintenance for military ships is based on its size and crew but it shouldn't get out of hand...

Trade ships shouldn't have maintenance ie IT A HUGE WAREHOUSE OF STUFF! "We need supplies..." (Pulls over by a few alien ships "suckers") "WANT A GUN, CAR, COMPUTER,... MY WIFE!?!?!?" (Korx).

Constructor should have a small maintenance fee and yes off topic "constructors should be reusable...

Well for miners... if they take damage ie mining in asteroids, I guess they could mine what they need and fix themselves as they move along their routes... so maybe no maintenance for them too...

Your thoughts...

Reply #15 Top

i think people misunderstand me. i only meant to remove building maintenance, not ship maintenance.....?

Reply #16 Top

Yep remove building maintenance no prob im just throwing in my idea on ship maintenance... ya I get yelled at alot. |-)

Reply #17 Top

Yes, I meant hindering the growth of larger factions. While maintenence may not be the best way to do that, we do need such a mechanic, and since you did not mention one (in the economy thread, where it would be most sensible to put it), I assumed that you did not want one put in. Thus, I wanted to keep what little we now have.