Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

For Sins 1.18 and Entrenchment 1.04

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

* Topics shoud be considered independent of eachother, vote for each topic as if the Devs were to choose only 1. Yay for fixes that you think would work, nay for fixes that you think won't*

** Now there's an easier way to cast your vote, download the easy entry form, fill it out and then copy and paste your results!**

>> Download The Easy Entry Form <<

REFERENCES
Several members of the community have taken it upon themselves to run tests to prove imbalances and recommend possible fixes. I would Encourage everyone commenting here to read these and become more informed.
Raging Amish's Lums vs Enforcers                           JJs HC Tests                      JJs Illum Tests

Deceivers Subjugator thread                        Deceivers Cap Carrier thread         

RAGING AMISH's Balance MOD

Game Bugs

These need to be addressed before anything else. The following is a compiled list of all known game bugs. Thanks to Pawelo for helping me compile and test these. If you can think of any others that aren't on here leave a comment to let me know.

-Embargo Level 2 and 3 do not stop cargo ships.

-Phasic Trap Research level 2 does not do anything.

-Magnetize does not interrupt channeled abilities

-Disruptive Strikes does not work on pulse beams

-Allegiance through wormholes is flawed.

-Wrong Sound effects on: Anima Tempest, repair cloud, nanite armor, EMP blast

-Infocard errors: Dunov shield restore does not increase mitigation, labs do not speed up build time

-Akkan Colonize ability does not always spawn extractors at lvl2 and lvl3.

-Subverters Disrupt Shields can not target structures with shields

-Some musics and Orange Skybox are not used.

 

SOLANUS ADJUDICATORS

The adjudicator, while it can target multiple structures, just doesnt have the punch its TEC cousin the Ogrovs has and has difficulty handling tight clusters of structures supported by repair bays. Also, without a well functioning healing unit, the poor adjudicator simply cant live long enough in the throws of battle to make a huge difference. We've discussed the changes, now its time to get official votes on them.

     Buff the Adjudicator-
                         Change armor type?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                           N3rull
                                               eoncommander

                              Nay-           Dargoon999         Warlord Mike

                         Reduce supply cost?:

                              Yay-           JuleTron              Kitkun                            Dargoon999
                                               Warlord Mike        Darvin3                         SivCorp
                                              
eoncommander

                              Nay-           

                         Reduce number of firing banks to increase damage per target?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  N3rull                            Dargoon999

                         Increase damage?:

                              Yay-            Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                              Nay-            Kitkun                  Dargoon999

                         Increase shields?:

                             Yay-            JuleTron                Kitkun                           eoncommander

                             Nay-            Dargoon999           Warlord Mike

      No Fix Needed-                    Ryat                      Extremor

MINES

These little critters were introduced in Entrenchment and have been seldom used. They are purely defensive, extremely expensive, and a huge gamble to put your money in. There's been much discussion on possible fixes, but now its time for an official vote, so here you go.

      Buff Mines
                        Increase damage?

                            Yay-              Juletron                Whiskey144                 SivCorp
                                                Extremor

             
               Nay-              EadTaes               Raging Amish               Ovi_187
                                                Kitkun                  eoncommander

                        Increase damage radius?

                            Yay-             Top Vasari             Whiskey144                  EadTaes
                                               Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                        SivCorp
                                               Extremor                eoncommander

                            Nay-             Juletron                 N3rull                           Raging Amish
                                               Kitkun

                        Increase activation radius?

                            Yay-             Warlord Mike         eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                JuleTron                       N3rull
                                              
Raging Amish         Ovi_187                       Kitkun
                                               Extremor

                        Increase mines per deployment?

                            Yay-             eoncommander

                            Nay-             EadTaes                N3rull                         Raging Amish
                                              
Warlord Mike          Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                              
Extremor

                        Increase deployment spread?

                            Yay-           Warlord Mike            Extremor                    eoncommander

                            Nay-           Juletron                   EadTaes                     N3rull
                                             Raging Amish           Ovi_187                     Kitkun

                        Decrease cost?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Mindseye(25%)           EadTaes(25%)
                                             Dargoon999             Whiskey144
                N3rull(20%)
                                            
Warlord Mike            Ovi_187                     Kitkun
                                             Extremor

                            Nay-           Raging Amish            eoncommander

                        Reduce build time for Proximity Mines(TEC)?

                            Yay-           Juletron                   Whiskey144                EadTaes
                                             Raging Amish           Warlord Mike               Ovi_187
                                             Kitkun                      Extremor

                            Nay-

                        Increase duration of Gravity Mines(Vasari)?
 
                            Yay-           Juletron                   N3rull                  Mindseye
                                            
Ovi_187                   Kitkun                 Extremor

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

                        Fix homming mines AI to return to original deployment location(Advent)?
 
                            Yay-           JuleTron                  EadTaes              N3rull
                                             Mindseye                 Warlord Mike       Ovi_187
                                            
SivCorp                    Kitkun                Extremor
                                            
eoncommander

                            Nay-           Raging Amish

                        Make Gravity Mines an upgrade to existing mines?

                            Yay-           N3rull                      Juletron               Dargoon999
                                             Ue-Carbon               Deceiver_0           Mindseye
                                            
Kitkun                     Extremor
                                          

                            Nay-           EadTaes                  Raging Amish

      No fix needed-

SIEGE FRIGATES

Costing more than most Heavy Cruisers, one would expect siege frigates to be able to handle a simple task like bombing a planet to oblivion, but with their super thin and weak hulls they certainly aren't worth the cost, and with Entrenchments bombardment protection on starbases, siege frigates find themselves in the obsolete unit pile. Personally I think they should be tough as nails since all they do is bomb planets and cost loads of resources and precious supply. With a decent buff these units could be the terror they once were and possibly bring back some of the planetary defense tech that fell from use after their nerf. (planetary shielding anyone?)

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?:
 
                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(Hp)     Volt_Cruelerz   Darvin3
                                                  Ryat
                   EadTaes         Dargoon999(10%)
                                                  N3rull(+nerf)        
Kitkun            eoncommander   


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Cykur                Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish      Ascension          Howdidudothat
                                                 Ovi_187              Sobric               Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

                        Change armor type (currently light)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0(v. heavy)  Soasertsus(v. heavy)  Volt_Cruelerz(heavy/v.heavy)
                                                
EadTaes (heavy)        Dargoon999(heavy)    N3rull(heavy)
                                                
SivCorp                     Extremor(heavy)         eoncommander


                              Nay-             Darvin3              Cykur                Ryat
                                                
Mindseye            Raging Amish     Ascension
                                                
Howdidudothat     Ovi_187             Sobric
                                                
Warlord Mike       Kitkun
 
                        Decrease Resource cost?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus        Darvin3               EadTaes
                                                  Howdidudothat
  Sobric                 Extremor              


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz      Cykur                 Ryat 
                                                 Dargoon999        Mindseye           Raging Amish
                                                 Ascension           Ovi_187             Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun

                        Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-            Soasertsus(6)     Darvin3               Cykur
                                                 Ryat(10)           EadTaes(10)        Dargoon999(10)
                                                 Mindseye          Howdidudothat      Raging Amish(12)
                                                 Ascension(12)   Ovi_187                mbaron888(8)
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike         SivCorp
                                                 Kitkun              eoncommander

                             
                              Nay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Extremor  

                        Increase Bombardment damage?:

                              Yay-            Volt_Cruelerz     Dargoon999(20%) Warlord Mike
                                                 Extremor

             
                              Nay-            Soasertsus         Darvin3               Cykur
                                               
Ryat                  EadTaes              Mindseye
                                               
Raging Amish     Ascension            Howdidudothat
                                               
Ovi_187             Sobric                 SivCorp
                                               
Kitkun                eoncommander


                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0        Soasertsus            Volt_Cruelerz
                                                 Darvin3            Cykur                   Ryat
                                                
Dargoon999      N3rull                   Mindseye
                                                 Raging Amish    Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike     Kitkun


                              Nay-             EadTaes           Ascension             Howdidudothat

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3          Sobric                     Warlord Mike

                             
                              Nay-             Soasertsus       Volt_Cruelerz          Cykur
                                                 Ryat                EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                
Mindseye         Raging Amish          Ascension
                                                
Howdidudothat  Ovi_187                 Kitkun

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?:

                              Yay-             Soasertsus       Darvin3(40)            Cykur
                                                 EadTaes(15)     Dargoon999(30)     Ovi_187
                                                 Kitkun


                              Nay-             Volt_Cruelerz    Ryat                     Mindseye
                                                
Raging Amish   Ascension              Howdidudothat
                                                 Sobric              Warlord Mike
                       
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?:

                              Yay-             Deceiver_0         Soasertsus              Volt_Cruelerz
                                                
Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish     Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                 Warlord Mike      Kitkun                    Extremor

                            
                              Nay-             Ryat                  Ascension              Howdidudothat             

                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?:

                              Yay-             Darvin3              EadTaes                 Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike
                                                 Kitkun                Extremor


                              Nay-             Soasertsus         Volt_Cruelerz           Ryat
                                                 
Ascension          Howdidudothat         Sobric


      No Fix Needed-

 

SEREVUN OVERSEER

The overseer is a powerful, but seldom used ship due to it's current lack of usability. I'd recommend anyone planning on voting on this topic read a few of the replies on page 5, where Ascension and I debated some changes. I've also thrown in a few ideas to make overseers 'Jump Degradation' ability a little more potent for the 100AM and channeling it costs.

      Buff Serevun Overseers-
                       
                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension            Soasertsus             milo896

                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana               N3rull
                                                  Mindseye            Cykur                     EadTaes
                                                 
Raging Amish      Ovi_187                 Warlord Mike  
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                eoncommander

                              Nay-             Pbhead                Sobric
                      
                         Increase turn rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0           JuleTron                Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  Ascension           
Soasertsus             milo896
                                                  Howdidudothat     lifekatana              N3rull
                                                 
Mindseye            Pbhead                  Raging Amish 
                                                  Ovi_187              Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                  Extremor             eoncommander

                              Nay-             EadTaes              Sobric                    SivCorp

                         Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?:

                              Yay-              Ascension           Raging Amish          Sobric
                                                 
Warlord Mike       SivCorp                   Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0          Soasertsus              Darvin3                                              
                                                  milo896
              Howdidudothat         lifekatana
                                                  N3rull                 Mindseye                 Pbhead
                                                  EadTaes             Ovi_187                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                      
   Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?:

                              Yay-              milo896              Howdidudothat         Mindseye
                                                 
EadTaes              Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                 Extremor                 eoncommander

                              Nay-              Soasertsus          lifekatana               Pbhead
                                                  Raging Amish
 
                         Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0 (5-10%)  Soasertsus(20%AM)  Darvin3
                                                  milo896              N3rull(speed reduction)  Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Howdidudothat     lifekatana              Mindseye
                                                  Pbhead               EadTaes                 Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187              Sobric                     Extremor

                        Allow 'Jump Degradation' to disable passive regeneration?

                              Yay-              Raging Amish       Deceiver_0              Diplominator
                                                  Juletron               
Sobric                    Extremor                 

                              Nay-              Ovi_187               Howdidudothat         Cykur
                                                  Kitkun

         No Fix Needed-


SKAROVAS ENFORCER

The relative weakness of the Enforcer has recently been brought to the forums attention (thanks JohnJames). With their higher resource cost, higher supply cost and more expensive upgrades, enforcers are unfortunately left in the dust by their counterparts. Many speculate that their extra ability (reintegration) is the cause for such a skewed balance, while others agree that reintegration lacks the power enforcers deserve. The following are some fixes that have been proposed. Personally, I think the Vasari should get a little more for what they pay for.

           Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

                         Decrease Resource Cost?:

                              Yay-              Ascension              EadTaes                  Sobric          

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Soasertsus               Volt_Cruelerz
                                                  lifekatana     
         Howdidudothat          Darvin3
                                                  Mindseye               Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                 
Warlord Mike          Kitkun                      Extremor  
                                                 
eoncommander      
               
                         Decrease Supply Cost?:

                              Yay-              Soasertsus             Sobric                       Extremor

                              Nay-              Deceiver_0             Volt_Cruelerz             lifekatana
                                           
       Howdidudothat        Darvin3                     Mindseye
                                                  EadTaes                 Raging Amish            Ovi_187
                                                 
Kitkun                    eoncommander

                     
    Increase hp/shields/armor?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0               Darvin3                   EadTaes(armor+1)
                                                  Raging Amish           SivCorp                   Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander
                           
                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           Soasertsus               lifekatana
                                                 
Howdidudothat         Mindseye                 Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                     Extremor

                    
     Increase Damage?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Soasertsus                Ascension
                                                  JuleTron                 
Darvin3                    Howdidudothat
                                                  Mindseye                
Cykur                      EadTaes(22)
                                                  Raging Amish(21.6)  Ovi_187                   Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike           SivCorp                    Kitkun
                                                  eoncommander

                              Nay-              Volt_Cruelerz           lifekatana                Extremor         

            
             Cheaper damage upgrades?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                   Ascension               DesConnor                Raging Amish
                                                   N3rull                     lifekatana                 JuleTron 

                                                  
Darvin3                  Howdidudothat           Mindseye
                                                  
EadTaes                 Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                                  
SivCorp                  Extremor                   eoncommander     

                              Nay-              Soasertsus              Ovi_187                    Kitkun

                    
     Higher reintegration rate?:

                              Yay-              Deceiver_0              Volt_cruelerz              Top Vasari
                                                  Soasertsus              N3rull                        lifekatana
                                                  JuleTron                
Darvin3                      Howdidudothat
                                                 
Ovi_187                  Sobric                        Kitkun

                              Nay-             Mindseye                 EadTaes                    Raging Amish 
                                                 Extremor

           No Fix Needed-                 Pbhead

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

The domina has been an a lot of peoples (f spending money on that) list for sometime. I tested and observed the subjugator while I was examining carrier caps and wrote a report on them as well. Here's some fixes that have been proposed for the Domina as well as the Stilakus Subverter (whose destiny is quite intertwined with the domina). I'll be putting the Subverter question under the REPULSE section as it has to do more as a counter to it.

          Buff Domina Subjugators-

                         Increase firing arc of abilities?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Mindseye              Darvin3
                                                  Gugabalog            
Cykur(heal only)    Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                 
SivCorp                  Kitkun                   eoncommander       

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana             Pbhead

              
           Increase turn rate?:

                                Yay-            Deceiver_0             Darvin3                Gugabalog
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead               
Raging Amish
                                                  Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun                    eoncommander

                                Nay-            EadTaes                lifekatana

                  
       Make abilities AOE?:

                                Yay-            Warlord Mike          SivCorp                eoncommander

                                Nay-            Deceiver_0             EadTaes               Gugabalog    
                                                  Darvin3                  lifekatana             Mindseye
                                                 
Pbhead                  Raging Amish        Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                    Kitkun

            
             Remove channeling from abilities?:

                               Yay-             EadTaes                Gugabalog             lifekatana
                                                 
Raging Amish         Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                                  Kitkun

              
                 Nay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                 Mindseye
                                                 
Pbhead                  Ovi_187                SivCorp
                                                  eoncommander

                
         Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?:

                               Yay-             Deceiver_0             Darvin3                  EadTaes
                                                  Gugabalog             Soasertsus             lifekatana
                                                  Mindseye               Pbhead                 
Cykur
                                                 
Raging Amish         Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                                 
Warlord Mike          SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                                 
eoncommander


                               Nay-             Pbhead

           No Fix Needed-

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

I've noticed people use Carrier Caps generally for 1 ability, and not for the strikecraft and SC bonuses they offer. Weaker than most other classes, they are sparse and somewhat unthreatening on the battle field. Personally I think they should offer more benefit in the strike craft department than they do now. I've written a detailed report on them, and taken some of the proposed changes from it for this thread.

             Buff Carrier Caps-

                        Increase Initial Armor?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0              Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Howdidudothat         Gugabalog          
Warlord Mike
                                                SivCorp                   Kitkun

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon          mbaron888
                                                Pirate-Jack             EadTaes              DesConnor
                                                Swordsalmon          lifekatana           
Pbhead
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Sobric
                                                Extremor                eoncommander

            
            Increase Squadron Capacity?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0 (see thread)  Soasertsus      Ryat
                                                -Ue_Carbon              ReadyMan           Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack          EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye            Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                  lifekatana
                                                -aceca-                   Derek06              
Ovi_187
                                               
Sobric                     Warlord Mike        SivCorp
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor             eoncommander

                                Nay-          Darvin3                  Raging Amish          

                
        Make SC buffs AOE?

                                Yay-          EadTaes               DesConnor               Swordsalmon
                                                Gugabalog           
Derek06                   Raging Amish
                                               
Sobric                   SivCorp                    Extremor
 
                                Nay-          Deceiver_0             Soasertsus              Ryat
                                                Darvin3                  -Ue_Carbon             Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888            Pirate-Jack               lifekatana
                                               
Pbhead                  Ovi_187                  Kitkun
                                               
eoncommander


                        Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Darvin3                 Howdidudothat
                                                 Mindseye                 Swordsalmon         Gugabalog
                                                
Derek06                  Raging Amish        Sobric 
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun               

               
                 Nay-          Soasertsus               Ryat                     -Ue_Carbon
                                                 mbaron888              Pirate-Jack           EadTaes
                                                DesConnor                lifekatana           
Pbhead
                                                Ovi_187                    Extremor             eoncommander

                        Re-work Scramble Bombers?

                                Yay-          Deceiver_0               Soasertsus            Ryat
                                                Darvin3                    -Ue_Carbon          Howdidudothat
                                                mbaron888              Pirate-Jack            EadTaes
                                                DesConnor               Mindseye              Swordsalmon   
                                                Gugabalog               N3rull                    lifekatana
                                                Pbhead                   
Derek06               Raging Amish
                                               
Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                                eoncommander

      
                          Nay-        

           No Fix Needed-

LIGHT FRIGATES

Most agree that Light Frigates don't scale well. Being limited in their usefulness early game, and becoming almsot complete obsolete late game with Heavy Cruiser research. Many ideas have been thrown around to get light frigates back on the battle field.

            Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?:

                                  Yay-         TheRezonator       Gugabalog               Darvin3
                                                  -Ue_carbon          Howdidudothat         JuleTron
                                                  Pirate-Jack          N3rull                      Ascension
                                                 
Cykur                  Dargoon999(20%)   Raging Amish(Vasari: 12)
                                                 
Ovi_187              SivCorp(10%)          

             
                     Nay-         Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888              DesConnor
                                                 lifekatana            
Pbhead                   EadTaes
                                                 Sobric                   Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                 
       Increase Damage bonus to heavy armor type?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 -Ue_carbon          JuleTron                  Pirate-Jack
                                                 Howdidudothat     mbaron888              DesConnor(Light)
            
                                     Ascension            lifekatana                EadTaes
                                                 Dargoon999         Raging Amish(175%+)   Ovi_187
                                                 Sobric                  SivCorp(25%)           Kitkun
                                                
Extremor             eoncommander

                                  Nay-         Volt_cruelerz        Pbhead    
                
   
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0(armor)      TheRezonator     Gugabalog
                                                  Darvin3                      JuleTron            Ascension
                                                  lifekatana                 
Dargoon999(10%)  Ovi_187
                                                  Warlord Mike              eoncommander

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz       Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                   mbaron888        DesConnor              
Pbhead
                                                   EadTaes            Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                   SivCorp             Kitkun                      Extremor
                  
                         Increase ability range?:

                                  Yay-          Deceiver_0          TheRezonator            Gugabalog
                                                  Volt_cruelerz       -Ue_carbon                JuleTron
                                                  Ascension          
Eadtaes                     Dargoon999
                                                  Raging Amish      Ovi_187                    Sobric
                                                  Kitkun                Extremor                   eoncommander
 
                                  Nay-          Howdidudothat    mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana          
Pbhead                   
                                                  
                 
       Increase firing arc?:

                                  Yay-          TheRezonator       Gugabalog              -Ue_carbon
                                                  JuleTron               Pirate-Jack               Howdidudothat
                                                  DesConnor            N3rull                      Ascension
                                                 
Eadtaes                Raging Amish           Sobric
                                                  Warlord Mike        SivCorp                    Extremor

                                  Nay-          Volt_cruelerz         mbaron888               lifekatana
                                                 
Pbhead                Dargoon999              Ovi_187
                                                  Kitkun                  eoncommander

           
             Increase turn speed?:

                                  Yay-          Darvin3                 EadTaes                TheRezonator
                                                  Pirate-Jack             ReadyMan            Howdidudothat
                                                  mbaron888            DesConnor            Mindseye
                                                  N3rull                    Ascension              Pbhead
                                                 
Eadtaes                 Dargoon999          Raging Amish
                                                 
Ovi_187                 Sobric                  Warlord Mike
                                                 
SivCorp                  Extremor              eoncommander

                                  Nay-         lifekatana              Kitkun

             Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?:

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0           TheRezonator           Gugabalog
                                                 Darvin3               Volt_cruelerz             JuleTron
                                                 Pirate-Jack           mbaron888               DesConnor
                                                 N3rull                  Ascension                  lifekatana
                                                
Eadtaes               Dargoon999              Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187               Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                                
SivCorp                Kitkun                     Extremor
                                                 eoncommander

                                  Nay-        Howdidudothat      Pbhead

     
        Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?:
   
                                  Yay-          Proletari                Darvin3               Azrak_Navarion
                                                 ReadyMan             Howdidudothat     Mindseye
                                                 Ascension             
Eadtaes               Dargoon999(10%)

                                  Nay-          Deceiver_0           Volt_cruelerz          Pirate-Jack
                                                  mbaron888          DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                 
Pbhead               Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                 Warlord Mike           Kitkun
                                                 
Extremor             eoncommander

                          Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?

                                  Yay-         Deceiver_0(125%)  Ovi_187              Howdidudothat
                                                
Sobric                   eoncommander

                                  Nay-         N3rull                    Cykur                 Warlord Mike
                                                
Kitkun                   Extremor

                          Increase LRF resource cost?:

                                  Yay-         Extremor

                                  Nay-         Deceiver_0            Pirate-Jack          Howdidudothat
                                                 mbaron888            DesConnor         lifekatana
                                                
Pbhead                 Eadtaes              Dargoon999
                                                 Raging Amish        Ovi_187              Sobric
                                                
Warlord Mike         Kitkun                 eoncommander

         
    No Fix Needed-                Soasertsus              dresda

REPULSE:


Many have said repulse needs a fix. Personally I agree.


            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Raging Amish         crashmatusow
                                                Ascension                 Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Tohron                     Darvin 3                 Top vasari
                                                mbaron888               Proletari                -Ue_carbon
                                                Major  Stress            Mindseye                Azrak_Navarion
                                                lbgsloan                   Gugabalog              Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat          JuleTron                 DesConnor
                                                lifekatana                -aceca-                  
Derek06
                                                Cykur                      Ovi_187                  Sobric
                                               
Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun
                                               
Extremor                  eoncommander   
                                              
                                    Nay-    dresda

                        Increase cooldown rate?

                                    Yay-      Raging Amish            Deceiver_0             Howdidudothat
                                               
Kitkun                       Extremor               eoncommander

                                    Nay-      Ovi_187                  Juletron                   Sobric
                                                 Cykur

                        Decrease AOE?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                 -Ue_carbon            DesConnor
                                              
eoncommander

                    
                Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         crashmatusow
                                               Mindseye                 Soasertsus              Howdidudothat
                                               dresda                     lifekatana             
Pbhead
                                              
Derek06                  Raging Amish         Ovi_187
                                              
Sobric                     Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                              
Extremor    

            
            Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension                Volt_cruelerz           Sobric
                                               
Extremor          

                     
               Nay-      Pirate - Jack            Major  Stress           Soasertsus
                                                 Mindseye                 Gugabalog            Howdidudothat
                                                 dresda                    DesConnor             lifekatana
                                                
Pbhead                   Derek06                 Raging Amish
                                               
Ovi_187                   Warlord Mike           Kitkun 
                                               
eoncommander 

             
            Cause damage to shields?:

                                    Yay-      EadTaes                  Volt_cruelerz        dresda

                        
            Nay-      Major  Stress           Mindseye             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog              Howdidudothat      DesConnor
                                                lifekatana              
Pbhead                Derek06
                                                Raging Amish         Ovi_187                Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike         Kitkun                    Extremor
                                               
eoncommander 
 
      
       Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?:

                                    Yay-     Gugabalog                TheRezonator         Volt_cruelerz
                                               
Derek06                   Raging Amish         Sobric
                                               
SivCorp                    Kitkun                   Extremor
                                               
eoncommander          

                      
              Nay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress          Soasertsus
                                               Mindseye                  DesConnor            lifekatana
                                              
Pbhead                     Ovi_187


          
              No affect to Cap Ships?:

                                    Yay-     Pirate - Jack             Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                               DesConnor               Cykur                  
Warlord Mike
                                              
SivCorp                    Kitkun                  Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                    Nay-    Mindseye                  Gugabalog              Soasertsus   
                                              lifekatana                 
Pbhead                  Derek06
                                             
Raging Amish            Ovi_187                  Sobric

        
                 Increase Distortion Field (targeting) range?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0               Soasertsus              Sobric
                                              
Kitkun                      eoncommander

                   
                 Nay-     lifekatana                crashmatusow          Pbhead
                                               Raging Amish           Ovi_187                  Extremor
     


            No Fix Needed-

MISSILE BARRAGE:

This has been a heated issue for several months. In the most recent patch, the devs made the graphic unique (red missile exhaust?) and extended the duration while reducing dps. Was this enough?


            Nerf Missile Barrage-

                        Decrease total damage?:

                                    Yay-      Extremor

                                    Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog             TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz          -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor            
Derek06                Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187                 Sobric                   Warlord Mike 

               
         Increase AM cost?

                                    Yay-      Ascension               Ovi_187

                         
           Nay-      mbaron888             Gugabalog            TheRezonator
                                                 Volt_cruelerz           -Ue_carbon           Howdidudothat
                                                 DesConnor             
Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike       Extremor
                                      
              
          Decrease AOE?

                                    Yay-      Tohron                     mbaron888           Howdidudothat
                                                 JuleTron                  DesConnor           
Sobric

                    
                Nay-      Gugabalog                TheRezonator       Volt_cruelerz
                                                 -Ue_carbon              
Derek06               Raging Amish 
                                               
Ovi_187                    Warlord Mike         Extremor                          

        
    Buff Counters-

                        Increase range on ability interrupts?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                   TheRezonator          Raging Amish
                                               Ovi_187                  Sobric                     Extremor

                     
               Nay-     Gugabalog              Volt_cruelerz            -Ue_carbon
                                                Howdidudothat        DesConnor

           
              LF abilities can target caps?:

                                    Yay-      Gugabalog             TheRezonator       Sobric
                                                Warlord Mike

                       
             Nay-      Volt_cruelerz         -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                                DesConnor             N3rull                  
Derek06
                                               
Raging Amish         Ovi_187               Extremor

               
        Graphic/Audio Improvement?:
 
                                    Yay-     Eadtaes                   Deceiver_0            Volt_cruelerz
                                               Gugabalog               TheRezonator        -Ue_carbon
                                               Howdidudothat          N3rull                   lifekatana
                                              
Derek06                   Cykur                   Raging Amish
                                              
Ovi_187                   Sobric                   Warlord Mike
                                               SivCorp                   Kitkun                   Extremor
                                               eoncommander

                                     Nay-    DesConnor

            No Fix Needed-             Deceiver_0                EadTaes             Azrak_Navarion
                                              Major  Stress             Top vasari          Soasertsus
                                              ReadyMan                 lifekatana
         SivCorp
                                              
Kitkun                      eoncommander       


CARRIERS:

Extensively nerfed in the previous 2 patches, carriers have lost their place as a hard counter to long ranged frigates, as flak frigates can now destroy fighters much faster than they are built, and long ranged frigates can now hunt the carriers themselves down.


            Buff Carriers-

                        Decrease build penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0                Ascension            crashmatusow
                                               Pirate - Jack              mbaron888          Volt_cruelerz
                                               lbgsloan                    Gugabalog           Top vasari
                                               Soasertsus                Howdidudothat      JuleTron
                                               N3rull                        lifekatana           
Derek06
                                              
Cykur                       Ovi_187                Sobric
                                               Warlord Mike             SivCorp                Kitkun
                                              
eoncommander 

                                    Nay-     DesConnor                Raging Amish       Extremor

                       
Increase fighter HP?:

                                    Yay-    Ascension                  Mindseye              Azrak_Navarion
                                              Gugabalog                 Howdidudothat     
Derek06
                                              Extremor

                     
               Nay-    Pirate - Jack             mbaron888             Volt_cruelerz
                                              Soasertsus                DesConnor             lifekatana
                                             
Raging Amish            Ovi_187                 Sobric
                                              Warlord Mike            SivCorp                  Kitkun 

           
             Reduce movement penalty?:

                                    Yay-     Tohron                    Soasertsus              Raging Amish
                                               mbaron888              Gugabalog              Howdidudothat
                                               JuleTron                  ReadyMan               DesConnor
                                              
Derek06                  Sobric                     SivCorp
                                               Extremor            

                                    Nay-     Pirate - Jack            crashmatusow         lifekatana
                                               
Cykur                     Deceiver_0             Ovi_187
                                              
Kitkun 

         
   Nerf Counters-

                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?:

                                   Yay-         EadTaes                Warlord Mike        eoncommander

                  
                 Nay-         Mindseye               Gugabalog           Volt_cruelerz
                                                  Soasertsus             Howdidudothat     DesConnor
                                                  lifekatana              
Raging Amish      Ovi_187
                                                 
Sobric                    Kitkun                  Extremor


            No Fix Needed-                 Major  Stress         -Ue_carbon            Pbhead

SCOUTS:

With the recent nerf to carriers, scouts have come to the forefront as a decent anti-lrf ship, and with their new found popularity some changes have been suggested.


            Nerf Scouts-

                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?:

                                    Yay-      Volt_cruelerz            Ovi_187

                          
          Nay-      Deceiver_0               Ascension             Soasertsus
                                                Gugabalog                Howdidudothat     
Derek06
                                               
Raging Amish           Sobric                   Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor

                        Increase scout supply requirement?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension                Pirate - Jack         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog               TheRezonator       Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat        
Derek06              Raging Amish
                                                
Ovi_187                  Sobric                  Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                      Extremor
 

                        Increase resource cost?:

                                    Yay-

                                    Nay-      Ascension               Pirate - Jack           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog              TheRezonator         Soasertsus
                                                 Howdidudothat       
Derek06                 Raging Amish 
                                                
Ovi_187                 Sobric                     Warlord Mike 
                                               
Kitkun                     Extremor
                                
      
      Buff Vasari Scouts-

                        Increase Hp/Shields?:

                                    Yay-     Deceiver_0              Raging Amish         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Ascension               Pirate - Jack             Soasertsus
                                                Mindseye                TheRezonator           Howdidudothat
                                               
Derek06                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                                Extremor

                   
                  Nay-   Gugabalog               Ovi_187

                 
       Increase damage?:

                                    Yay-      Ascension              Raging Amish           Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             TheRezonator           Soasertsus
                                                Howdidudothat       
Derek06                  Cykur(+.5dps)
                                                Ovi_187                 Sobric                      Warlord Mike
                                               
SivCorp                  Kitkun                      Dargoon999
                                               
                                    Nay-      Extremor


            No Fix Needed-              EadTaes                 mbaron888            JuleTron
                                               Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              ReadyMan
                                               DesConnor              lifekatana             
Pbhead
                                              
eoncommander

ILLUMINATORS:

The relative strength of illuminators has been under debate for some time, and many fixes have been proposed, here are a few, let me know if you’ve got others. I've done my own research, and have posted my findings.


            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?:
 
                                    Yay-      Ascension               Volt_cruelerz           Ovi_187
                                                Pirate - Jack           EadTaes                 Top vasari
                                                lbgsloan                 Gugabalog              Azrak_Navarion
                                                Soasertsus              Howdidudothat       
Derek06
                                                Extremor

                         
            Nay-     Major  Stress          -Ue_carbon              lifekatana
                                               
Raging Amish         Sobric                     Warlord Mike
                                                
Kitkun                  eoncommander
                                               

         
               Adjust damage division between beams?:

                                    Yay-    Deceiver_0(33%)    mbaron888               -Ue_carbon
                                              Gugabalog             DesConnor                N3rull
                                               Ascension            
Derek06                   Raging Amish(33%)
                                               Ovi_187               Sobric                       Warlord Mike
                                              
eoncommander 

                                    Nay-    Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress             Soasertsus
                                              Howdidudothat       lifekatana                 
Kitkun
                                             
Extremor            

                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?:

                                   Yay-      Pirate - Jack (hp only)        EadTaes          TheRezonator
                                               Ascension              Gugabalog                  -Ue_carbon
                                               Soasertsus             Howdidudothat            DesConnor
                                               -aceca-                 
Derek06                      Cykur
                                               Raging Amish(Hp&Armor)  Ovi_187            Sobric 
                                              
Warlord Mike           SivCorp                     Kitkun
                                              
Extremor(450/500)  eoncommander

                        
           Nay-      Major  Stress        Volt_cruelerz                Soasertsus
                                               lifekatana           


                        Increase supply requirement?:

                                  Yay-        DesConnor            Derek06               Kitkun 

                
                  Nay-        Pirate - Jack          Major  Stress         Volt_cruelerz
                                                Gugabalog             Soasertsus            Howdidudothat
                                                lifekatana             
Raging Amish        Ovi_187   
                                               
Sobric                    Warlord Mike         Extremor 
                                               
eoncommander        
 
                        Decrease Damage?:
 
                                  Yay-        EadTaes                Ascension               Soasertsus
                                                Major  Stress        Gugabalog                ReadyMan
                                                DesConnor(Caps only)  N3rull                lifekatana
                                               
Ovi_187                Extremor          

                      
            Nay-        Volt_cruelerz        -Ue_carbon            Howdidudothat
                                               
Derek06              Raging Amish         Sobric
                                               
Warlord Mike        Kitkun                    eoncommander

                             
                  

            No Fix Needed-             mbaron888           Mindseye               dresda
                                             
Pbhead

More to come-

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Reply #201 Top

Buff Siege Frigates

Increase Hp/shields/armor?: N
Change armor type (currently light)?: N
Decrease Resource cost?: N
Decrease Supply Cost?: Y
Increase Bombardment damage?: N
Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Y
Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?:   No reason to if you make Fallout Active
Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Y

 

Siege Frigates should be kind of fragile...trust me, you don't want to go back to the days of Marauding siege fleets blowing up your worlds before you can even kill them.  Still, I agree the fleet supply cost is way too high, and experience should probably be reduced a bit.

Reply #202 Top

while we are requesting changes for next patch may I bring up another issue

this has to do with the phasic trap for the hangars belonging to the Vasari

they seem to be set for autocast and cast continuosly

this causes problems when fighters/bombers are in production as this slows it down

I request that either turn off the autocast when we build them or fix the AI that controls the autocast because when you have several in a chokepoint area it gets kind of lame to have to check 5 to 10 different hangars

edit: I do think something needs to be done for the lowly siege frigate (possible a slight increase of toughness) so put me up for yes on armor/hitpoints/shieldpoints and possible a yes on Heavy Fallout being an active instead of passive with application to pirates. Also decrease of supply points (down to 10 perhaps)

nay for the rest

Reply #203 Top

trust me, you don't want to go back to the days of Marauding siege fleets blowing up your worlds before you can even kill them
End of quote

I'd agree, but they're a far cry from that right now.  They could be buffed quite modestly and still be easily taken down.  Remember that siege frigates have the same armour type as LRF, so a scout rush will be a perfect answer to a siege frigate rush.  No tech cost, a cheap unit that can easily outrun the unit it's countering, and you're now set up to counter LRF.  Quick start should also help matters.  I don't think the conditions that created the silly siege frigate harassment in the early versions of the game still exist.

Reply #204 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 24
 Vasari bombers are IMO the strongest in the game. 
End of Darvin3's quote
All you've said just does not matter.
Their superior armor and HPs matter only against, say, three flaks. Five or more flak frigs or one fighter squadron will one-shot a bomber. They're so pitifully few and rebuild so slowly, their awesome amounts of hps don't really matter. Sure, if there is no anti-bomber defense, they're nice. With massed fighters and flaks around, they are too few, they don't die slow enough and don't rebuild fast enough.
You said they have +75% ish bonus to damage compared to the pitiful +30% of others. Well, "others" have either cheaper carrier production (tec) or have 3 squadrons of 7 bombers in each (advent).
Nec Hercules contra plures as we say in Poland.

Quoting Darvin3, reply 24
 
Vasari don't have any dedicated anti-structure cruiser


I don't think they need one. 
End of Darvin3's quote

That's exactly what I said, if you care to read it thoroughly.

But I do think that
if
TEC can build and send 30 Ogrovs that will deal 10000 damage over 20 seconds
Advent can build 20 starfish that will deal 4000 damage to 5 structures over 20 seconds

then
their Vasari equivalent, the Orky, should be able to deal at least some sensible portion of that if you pay a ton of cash on upgrading it.
Right now, a repair bay combined with the shield recharging power of the Advent hangar defense is enough to mitigate 90% of the damage done by a 2-assault upgraded orky. Laugh!!

Reply #205 Top

I'll give a new reply. to amke things clear incase some things have changed.

Siege Frigates

Buff Siege Frigates

Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yes. They could use some but it's not the prioraty.

Change armor type (currently light)?: Change to heavy.

Decrease Resource cost?: Yes definately.

Decrease Supply Cost?: Yes from 14 to 10

Increase Bombardment damage?: No

Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: What would that change? A TEC player deciding when to use fallout or not No.

Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: No

Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Yes 10-15 is enought.

Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yes

Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Yes

No Fix Needed-


SEREVUN OVERSEER

Buff Serevun Overseers-

Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yes

YesIncrease turn rate?: No

Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?: No

Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?: Yes some

Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?: NO

No Fix Needed-

SKAROVAS ENFORCER

Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

Decrease Resource Cost?: Yes

Decrease Supply Cost?: No

Increase hp/shields/armor?: Yes Armor by 1 point.

Increase Damage?: Yes from 20 to 22.

Cheaper damage upgrades?: Pulse and Waves should be same weapons, If so no dmg increase.

Higher reintegration rate?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

Buff Domina Subjugators-

Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yes

Increase turn rate?: Yes only if firing arc is not increased

Make abilities AOE?: HELL NO

Remove channeling from abilities?: Yes only if this is only change.

Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?: Yes This woudl also help all otehr support cruisers, no poitn in casting the same effect twice on the same target

No Fix Needed-

 

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

Buff Carrier Caps- Posted this in the linked carrier thread I still stand by it.

Increase Initial Armor? NO

Increase Squadron Capacity? YES

Make SC buffs AOE? Yes

Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? No

Re-work Scramble Bombers? Yes

Give them Flak guns? Yes but not stronger then 2 flak frigates.

No Fix Needed-

 

LIGHT FRIGATES

Buff Light Frigates-

Increase Damage?: No

Increase Damage bonus to armor type?: Yes Either raze dmg to equal LRFs or lower LRFs dmg to equal LFs. https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356140

Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: No

Increase ability range?: Yes

Increase firing arc?: Yes

Increase turn speed?: Yes

Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: Yes

Nerf Counters-

Decrease LRF Damage?: Yes, if you do not increase LFs dmg vs ligth armor

Increase resource cost?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

REPULSE:

Nerf Guardians-

Increase AM cost?: Yes

Decrease AOE?: Don't see how it could be reduced further.

Increase resource cost?: No

Cause damage to shields?: Yes

Buff Counters-

Increase LF ability range?: Yes

No affect to Cap Ships?: No

Increase Distortion Field activation range?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

MISSILE BARRAGE:

Nerf Missile Barrage-

Decrease total damage?: No

Increase AM cost? No

Decrease AOE? No

Buff Counters-

Increase range on ability interrupts?: No

LF abilities can target caps?: No

Graphic Improvement?: Yes

Custom sound? Yes

No Fix Needed-

 

CARRIERS:

Buff Carriers-

Decrease build penalty?: Yes

Increase fighter HP?: No

Reduce movement penalty?: Yes

Nerf Counters-

Reduce Flak rate of fire?: Yes, only if build penalty is not completly removed.

No Fix Needed-

 

SCOUTS:

Nerf Scouts-

Reduce damage buff against light armor?: No

Increase scout supply requirement?: No

Increase resource cost?: No

Buff Vasari Scouts-

Increase Hp/Shields?: No

Increase damage?: No

No Fix Needed- Yes no fix needed.

 

ILLUMINATORS:

Nerf Illuminators-

Increase resource cost?: Yes

Adjust damage division between beams?: Not gonna do anything much so No.

Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Yes

Increase supply requirement?: Could help some but only some so a small yes.

Decrease Damage?: No Their should be more like a glass cannon.

No Fix Needed-

Reply #206 Top

All you've said just does not matter.
Their superior armor and HPs matter only against, say, three flaks. Five or more flak frigs or one fighter squadron will one-shot a bomber.
End of quote

Highest DPS flak frigate is the Advent's, dealing 18 dps.  It deals 150% damage to fighters.  Vasari fighters have 85 hit points, and would take 27 damage per second per flak frigate.  Takes four hits to kill.  Seeing as flaks can't actually aim all their guns at the same target, in practice it takes more than that.  Highest damage fighters are Advent (23.4 dps per squad, accounting for double damage agianst bombers).  This means it takes a whole squad six seconds to actually kill a single bomber, again presuming they all attack the same target.

So no, there's a big chance a fighter or bomber will get out of that scrape with some scraps of health intact, ready to be healed.

Well, "others" have either cheaper carrier production (tec) or have 3 squadrons of 7 bombers in each (advent).
End of quote

I'm tired about people talking about Advent having 3 squads as if it's some massive advantage.  They cost 50% more, and field 50% more squads.  Cost-wise you get the same number of squads as everyone else.  Secondly, the TEC carrier has almost exactly the same cost as the Vasari carrier, and if anything Vasari has an 8% cost discount upgrade  to all units and structures in the civvy tech tree.

 

Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: What would that change?
End of quote

Heavy fallout prevents a planet from being recolonized after it is destroyed.  Making it an active, rather than passive, ability means it coul be turned off.  That should be obvious enough.

Reply #207 Top

'm perplexed why you want to see them in very heavy armour. This would mean they would be countered by bombers and only bombers.
End of quote

with very heavy armor, it doesnt mean a siege frigate is only counterable by bombers, it just means bomber are the only thing that can deal 100% damage to them. Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars. I feel with heavy armor, hangars will be used more to defend against them. Since siege frigates sole purpose is bombardment, I think they should be hard to kill with conventional early game units. If given heavy armor, a single bomber squad would be able to down them relatively quickly. Their fragile hulls with light armor leave the susceptible to scouts (which i think is kinda silly) and fighters who deal 200% damage to light armor, meaning they'll die as fast as an lrf, but they cost at least twice as much, and don;t do squat to anyhting but planets. Simply put I dont think anything should get a damage bonus against siege frigates, and only a select few units should be able to penetrate its armor and deal full damage. Lrf would still deal %75 damage to them and everything else would be %50.

Reply #208 Top

with very heavy armor, it doesnt mean a siege frigate is only counterable by bombers, it just means bomber are the only thing that can deal 100% damage to them. Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars. I feel with heavy armor, hangars will be used more to defend against them. Since siege frigates sole purpose is bombardment, I think they should be hard to kill with conventional early game units. If given heavy armor, a single bomber squad would be able to down them relatively quickly. Their fragile hulls with light armor leave the susceptible to scouts (which i think is kinda silly) and fighters who deal 200% damage to light armor, meaning they'll die as fast as an lrf, but they cost at least twice as much, and don;t do squat to anyhting but planets. Simply put I dont think anything should get a damage bonus against siege frigates, and only a select few units should be able to penetrate its armor and deal full damage. Lrf would still deal %75 damage to them and everything else would be %50.
End of quote

You REALLY don't want to make them Very Heavy.  Siege should be fragile.  It should only be used in situations where the space around a planet has been secured.  Back in the day fleets of siege would trek around and lay waste to planets while the defending player would attempt to shoot it down.  Even if the defending player eventually destroyed most of the siege, they would have been economically crippled from loss of planets, maybe their HW, and the aggressor would just build more siege and rinse and repeat.

Reply #209 Top

Wtich is in part why I thing they should be heavy armor not Very Heavy. That way LFs become the counter. But before you can do that you need to fix LRF, Carriers and Flak.

Reply #210 Top

better just to leave the channeling on domina's, or you will be facing fleets of non-disable-able ships

Reply #211 Top

Deceiver, I would greatly appreciate if you could add my vote on the Siege Frigate dilemma. 

I would also like to cast my vote on other ships but for tonight I will concentrate on the mighty Siege Frigates.

 

 

Siege Frigates

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yes, but only by +10% (more and they risk being gamekillers)
                           
                        Change armor type (currently light)?: Yes, to Heavy (this would mean that the hard counter would be Light Frigates).

                        Decrease Resource cost?: No

                        Decrease Supply Cost?: Yes, from 14 to 10

                        Increase Bombardment damage?: Yes, by +20% (from 21 to 25 for TEC/Advent and from 25 to 30 for Vasari).

                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Yes

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: No

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Yes, to 30-ish
                                           
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yes
                      
                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Yes

 

 

I would also like to add that each races Siege Frigates should be a bit more different from one another, for example;

- TEC Krosov Siege Frigates: +30% weapon range vs. planets.

- Advent Purge Vessels: +10% movement speed.

- Vasari Karrastra Destructors: Reintegration ability.

But this might be more helpful in another threat.

Reply #212 Top

The way I see it there is realy no winning with saige frigates. If you leave them how they are than they are useless but if you buff them then people will just go Rambo with them and maul your planets.

Reply #213 Top

Quoting soasertsus, reply 12
The way I see it there is realy no winning with saige frigates. If you leave them how they are than they are useless but if you buff them then people will just go Rambo with them and maul your planets.
End of soasertsus's quote

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.

Reply #214 Top

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.
End of quote

No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege.  Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

Anyhow, Siege did get a bit over nerfed, I think they could use a supply decrease.  But the nerfing happened for a good reason.

Reply #215 Top

Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars.
End of quote

Siege are tier 1 for Advent and Vasari; they're only tier 2 for TEC, who will be getting LRMs anyways.

Hangers are immobile, siege frigates are not.  You have to hanger up each of your planets (this isn't an AI we're talking about, this is a player who knows how to scout and pick the most vulnerable targets), and that's extremely expensive.  So a team of two or three roaming siege frigates can become extremely difficult to route without spending many times their value to hanger up all your worlds.  As well, the siege frigate can be researched so early into the game that it's quite possible that you won't have enough scouts to see it coming and won't be prepared.

I have no problem with them moving over to heavy armour type.  This would make them weak to light frigates.  Staying light as they are will leave them weak to scouts.  Either way works.  On the other hand, I could agree to make them "very heavy" if they got moved tech levels up.  At level 1, they just come out too early.  If they were level 3 or 4 that would be another matter.

No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege
End of quote

Honestly, if your opponent is using fleet space to build siege frigs, a unit that's useless in combat, you can afford to spend some fleet space on light frigates, a unit that is marginal in combat.  Honestly, if it gets the LF used more it's probably a good thing.

Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.
End of quote

When it comes to "countering" siege frigates, we're mostly talking about small forces defending your flanks.  If this is a major fleet battle, armour types be damned the siege frigates are going to get toasted by masses of LRF fire!

 

Reply #216 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 14

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.
No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege.  Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

Anyhow, Siege did get a bit over nerfed, I think they could use a supply decrease.  But the nerfing happened for a good reason.
End of Cykur's quote

That's why i said before this could be done the carrier flak and LRF balance needs to be fixed. If ti fixed back to what it wa sin 1.01 I for one can say will ahve no problem with seige frigates.

Reply #217 Top

Again, I'll reiterate: if we're talking about a massive fleet battle, armour types won't mean much because three dozen LRF are going to focus fire those siege frigates, and they will not survive.  It's small harass teams that these armour types really matter for, and light frigates and scouts both are fully capable and respectable in small engagements. 

Reply #218 Top

Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.
End of quote

Which is why I think they should be very heavy and let bombers be the hard counter and lrfs be soft counter. With early game fleets being lrf based, and the cost of the damn things, siege spamming won't be a viable strategy, but they will be significantly tougher to kill.

Also lets not forget that in entrenchment at tier 3 one can build a starbase and prevent the loss of control to bombardment, sapping much of the siege frigates power. They may be tier 1 and 2 but with the current supply they take up, you won;t be able to build a lot of them and have a decent fleet until you tech to tier 3, at which point you can get an SB to protect your most precious planets. Got a problem with a siege spammer? build a starbase and you are fine.

It takes a good long time for a few siege frigates to take down a 1500hp planet (which one can upgrade higher, and for cheap with certain early game techs and abilities), and rushing out more early game siege leaves a player with a lot less supply (and resources) for a fleet to protect them.

There are lots of options for fixing the siege frigate, this just happens to be my favorite. Whatever happens to them though, I really don't think their armor should be light.

Keep up the great discussion

 

Reply #219 Top

Which is why I think they should be very heavy and let bombers be the hard counter and lrfs be soft counter. With early game fleets being lrf based, and the cost of the damn things, siege spamming won't be a viable strategy, but they will be significantly tougher to kill.

Also lets not forget that in entrenchment at tier 3 one can build a starbase and prevent the loss of control to bombardment, sapping much of the siege frigates power. They may be tier 1 and 2 but with the current supply they take up, you won;t be able to build a lot of them and have a decent fleet until you tech to tier 3, at which point you can get an SB to protect your most precious planets. Got a problem with a siege spammer? build a starbase and you are fine.

It takes a good long time for a few siege frigates to take down a 1500hp planet (which one can upgrade higher, and for cheap with certain early game techs and abilities), and rushing out more early game siege leaves a player with a lot less supply (and resources) for a fleet to protect them.

There are lots of options for fixing the siege frigate, this just happens to be my favorite. Whatever happens to them though, I really don't think their armor should be light.

Keep up the great discussion
End of quote

 

I don't think the armor type is as big a deal as their supply cost being too high.  I think they were just a bit over-nerfed.  But not much....I try to remind people why the nerf happened, but I'm really not too worried about them getting much of a fix.  Ironclad made them like this in response to all of the people crying because they couldn't kill the siege frigs fast enough to save their worlds.  It was deemed "not fun" for people to get QUICKLY knocked out of a game by someone who was not even trying to fight their fleet.

Reply #220 Top

Ironclad made them like this in response to all of the people crying because they couldn't kill the siege frigs fast enough to save their worlds.
End of quote

I remember those days, but many changes have been made to the game since then, and I think it's safe to start (maybe slowly) reducing that nerf, or re-tooling siege frigates to regain their place in the fleet.

 

Reply #221 Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 6
Highest DPS flak  (...)  again presuming they all attack the same target.

So no, there's a big chance a fighter or bomber will get out of that scrape with some scraps of health intact, ready to be healed.
End of Darvin3's quote

1] Ready to be healed means you need to manually bring them into your Skirantra's repair cloud range, which is SMALL. So you either have to micro the strikecraft into the repair cloud, which takes time and their DPS off, or you have to park the skirantra right next to what the strikecraft are attacking, which is hardly a good idea against supported starbases.
2] Your calculations are all very nice and stuff, but please launch the game and check it out. You'll see that Vasari bombers DO DIE to flaks and fighters only slightly slower than any other bombers, while being very few and rebuilding slowly.

Quoting Darvin3, reply 6
I'm tired about people talking about Advent having 3 squads as if it's some massive advantage.  They cost 50% more, and field 50% more squads.
End of Darvin3's quote

1] It's tier 1 research, not tier 2
2] It rebuilds strikecraft almost twice as fast
3] their squadrons are 9 fighters 7 bombers , unlike 5 & 3 for Vasari.
So they still have an advantage

Quoting Darvin3, reply 6
Secondly, the TEC carrier has almost exactly the same cost as the Vasari carrier, and if anything Vasari has an 8% cost discount upgrade  to all units and structures in the civvy tech tree.
End of Darvin3's quote

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.

 -------------------------------------------------------

As for the siege frigates,
I think that changing their armor to heavy is a good idea as long as LFs get buffed.

Another good idea IMO would be to
- increase siege frigs' hull, shields by 100% and their armor by 1 or 2
AND at the same time
- reduce their speed by 30% and increase their phase jump chargup time by 50%.
(the second may not be doable in stats but giving all siege frigs an always-present passive debuff would be a quick and easy solution)

That way, they will be tough enough to survive a bit out there while still not being fast enough to freely jump around enemy planets, raiding and harassing and pissin' him off.

Of course, yay to active heavy fallout

Reply #222 Top

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.
End of quote

N3rull I think you're off 1 tier, i think most people consider tier 0 stuff you're already given (scouts, lfs and colony frigs). Tier 1 requires 1 research lab, tier 2 requires 2 research labs etc. etc. That's the most logical way to look at it, and I believe most people consider "tiers" that way.

May help clarify your arguement, because on first glance I was like "what the heck is he talking about? TEC tradeports tier 1?"

Reply #223 Top

Well I used the tier order suggested by soasewiki.com . Sorry if it ain't clear.

Reply #224 Top

1] Ready to be healed means you need to manually bring them into your Skirantra's repair cloud range, which is SMALL. So you either have to micro the strikecraft into the repair cloud, which takes time and their DPS off, or you have to park the skirantra right next to what the strikecraft are attacking, which is hardly a good idea against supported starbases.
End of quote

Okay, who uses fighters and doesn't micro them?  If you want an attack-move army, fighters are possibly the last unit in the game you should be building (at least in the current version).  If you don't micro your fighters they get chewed up and spit out by flak.  Moreover, they won't attack LRF unless you tell them to.  You have to order them to attack flak frigates every time they kill one because they'll go back to attacking enemy bombers and fighters otherwise.  Secondly, fighters are so fast that moving them into the area of effect of repair cloud is trivial.  I do it all the time.

2] Your calculations are all very nice and stuff, but please launch the game and check it out. You'll see that Vasari bombers DO DIE to flaks and fighters only slightly slower than any other bombers, while being very few and rebuilding slowly.
End of quote

You lose some, for sure, but plenty of them do get away from flaks with health remaining.

1] It's tier 1 research, not tier 2
2] It rebuilds strikecraft almost twice as fast
3] their squadrons are 9 fighters 7 bombers , unlike 5 & 3 for Vasari.
So they still have an advantage
End of quote

What's tier 1 research?  I wasn't referring to any research in that post.   Yes, the drone host rebuilds strike craft fastest and their squads are the largest, but Advent strike craft are individually weaker than what the other factions field.  Overall Advent strike craft squads deal slightly more damage and have slight more health in total, but it's not enough to make a big dent. 

 

Partly out of curiousity to do with our discussion here, I did some isolated testing of fighter vs flaks, specifically Advent vs Vasari.  My findings were that the difference in the longevity of their fighters fell well within the margin of error.  They both die to flak virtually at the same speed, and minor variations in speed and positioning had greater impact on the results than which variety of fighter and flak I was using.  The best conclusion to draw from this is that the performance you get out of strike craft has more to do with how you use them than which variety you're using.

 

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.
End of quote

Saying "TEC has a stronger economy" and "TEC has cheaper units" are two completely different things.  The former is true in most cases, the latter is not.  This is an important distinction, especially in team games with feeding.  I'm not going to open yet another bag of worms by comparing Vasari and TEC economic strategies, but suffice to say that I view trade as overrated.

"what the heck is he talking about? TEC tradeports tier 1?"
End of quote

That was my thought as well.  I use terms like "2-lab level" and "tier 2" interchangably.

Reply #225 Top

May I add the strikecraft longevity against flak is hugely effected by behavior- i.e setting strikecraft to hold position behavior allows them to live longer against flak frigates, but requires more micro to be effective attackers.