pyalot pyalot

Impulse DRM

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Impulse DRM

Just call it by its name and get the shame

http://islanddog.impulsedriven.net/article/344308/Stardock_throws_GOO_on_DRM
from Stardock Forums

Dear Stardock, I'm sorely thoroughly dissapointed in you. You claim you do no DRM, yet you introduce a technology that encrypts the whole game and requires you to associate that container with your account.

A DRM hs the following properties:

  • it encrypts the content
  • The key for decryption is hidden from the user
  • Decryption happens on demand trough the DRM code

Impulse has the following properties:

  • it encrypts the content
  • The key for decryption is hidden from the user
  • Decryption happens on demand trough the DRM code

Now you may object "wait, but we don't do any of the other evil things". But that's not the point. Already you violate your own Gamers Bill of rights point 8 "Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers." by showing intent on possibly restricting a users rights (otherwise there'd be no need for the whole container/encryption farce)

At this point, pretty much the promise (and yes it is a promise) not to phone home and not tie an installation of a game to the hardware etc becomes pretty much meaningless. You showed you're willing to sacrifice the freedom of the Gamer already, and by all likelyhood the code to tie a container to a machine and to phone home everytime it starts is already in place, though not active until you "kill" a gamers installation (because you think he copied to much etc.).

 

 

 

off-topic
789,824 views 245 replies
Reply #126 from Stardock Forums Top

More, i have ask on these forum if it was possible to buy more license key for entrenchment for make them gift to other people... but no reply...
End of quote
Instructions are here: http://islanddog.wincustomize.com/articles.aspx?aid=169132
Since i have buy several boxed version of sins and have find a solution to buy the entrenchment version myself ( no reply from the support team )
End of quote
Did you get an auto-reply with a ticket #?  If not a spam filter may have prevented reception.

 

Carry on.

Reply #127 from Stardock Forums Top

@frogboy

I apreciate you hanging out here and spending some time to bash me. I think I've raised some valid concerns, I'm afraid they apear to be burried under a ton of other comments.

I respect your opinion of not wanting me as a paying customer and since you offer the truth so bluntly I shall respond in kind. I was deeply impressed by your impasionate blog entry how it's all about paying customers and not about pirates and how copy protection is worth jack, you connected to me. Then I find out you actually implement a DRM system of your own, and I'm absymally shocked. For a while there you where my hero. :'(

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Reply #128 from Sins Forums Top

Are you encouraging the practice with that obvious statement?

Or is it, again, that Piracy tactics however adaptative they may get won't stop anyone from distributing unhackable products for a given period in such a manner that a balance sheet shows stable closing figures?

I'll say it once more, i have no respect for thieves. They're in a brain jail tough enough to just go by us in total indifference while we CAN ignore what they do, did or will.

End of quote

 

Cracking an EXE has nothing to do with theft.  Equating copyright infringement as theft is stupid.  If you consider the downloading of a game you don't own to be theft, fine by me.  There are logical holes in that reasoning, but I don't get particularly excited over it.  If my using a cd crack is also theft, you need a brain transplant.

 

An EXE that has no modifications to it, and is simply wrapped by another bit of code, doesn't need cracked again once it's been unwrapped.  You never have to mess with it, simply make an archive of the unwrapped version and be done with it.  No need to keep updating the crack, no worry that no one will crack the last update.  It simplifies the content surviving the demise of it's distribution system, simple is good.

Reply #129 from Demigod Forums Top

I apreciate you hanging out here and spending some time to bash me. I think I've raised some valid concerns, I'm afraid they apear to be burried under a ton of other comments.
End of quote

No, you haven't brought up any valid concerns.  You have outright stated that Stardock is somehow changing its policy which it isn't.  You're not familiar with Stardock or what has gone on in the past. You're just flaming for the sake of flaming. 

Reply #130 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Cracking an EXE has nothing to do with theft....
End of quote

And sadly for the cracker, it's against the usual well known perfectly legalese mumbo EUA for people who DO have the brains to respect others' source code & 'copyright properties'.

I could unwrap & decompile & reverse engineer every last byte of whatever was *necessary* for myself in a secured working environment a few years ago (call it an Espionage skill, industrial or otherwise if you like), but i still don't (even today) for personal hacking reasons or fun or outright theft of the simplest of ideas indented in a such a manner that it's readable and reproducible.

If i need some sort of transplant, it's not for the brain either - it's tolerance against indirect ways for kiddy small crooks to mess around with something they certainly aren't aware of.

Reply #131 from Sins Forums Top

Pyalot seems hell-bent on earning a martyr cookie.

Reply #132 from Stardock Forums Top

No, you haven't brought up any valid concerns. You have outright stated that Stardock is somehow changing its policy which it isn't. You're not familiar with Stardock or what has gone on in the past. You're just flaming for the sake of flaming.
End of quote

So Goo is nothing new?

Reply #133 from Demigod Forums Top

So Goo is nothing new?
End of quote

Correct.  Stardock has been doing the same thing that GOO has been doing for something like 7 years.  GOO now allows *other* developers/publishers/distributors do the same thing as they have always done.

Reply #134 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting pyalot, reply 7

No, you haven't brought up any valid concerns. You have outright stated that Stardock is somehow changing its policy which it isn't. You're not familiar with Stardock or what has gone on in the past. You're just flaming for the sake of flaming.

So Goo is nothing new?
End of pyalot's quote

Goo makes it easy to offer what we have been doing fo rour own software to others and gives users and publishers the ability to transfer licenses (resell) and have a universal license system so that people can potentially redownload their game from anyone who carries that game.

Reply #135 from Stardock Forums Top

Correct. Stardock has been doing the same thing that GOO has been doing for something like 7 years. GOO now allows *other* developers/publishers/distributors do the same thing as they have always done.
End of quote

Factually not true, get your facts straight.

While Stardock prez Brad Wardell maintains they do not
plan on adding DRM to their own games, other publishers have challenged them to
help make DRM more acceptable to consumers

The new technology, known as Game Object Obfuscation (Goo), ...

We're investigating what would make users happy to protect their needs, but also provide some security for the publishers. ... We're actually developing a technology that would do that.

I'm opposed to DRM (and that means Goo, which is new) on principle. But to tell it with the words of Brad:

For instance, if someone’s watermarking your personal info into an EXE and you’re cheering that on, you’re a fan boy.

Now, I wouldn't take my issue out here with you and Brad normally. However if you go to draft a Gamers Bill of Rights and publicly vocally oppose DRM and then go to invent your own... you're bound to take some flak.

 

Reply #136 from Stardock Forums Top

Goo makes it easy to offer what we have been doing fo rour own software to others and gives users and publishers the ability to transfer licenses (resell) and have a universal license system so that people can potentially redownload their game from anyone who carries that game.
End of quote

Brad, I've plead for this before, but maybe it was droned out. Simply saying Goo is better and all isn't going any length to convince idiots like me that this is so. If you want to dispell doubts you'll have to disclose in acute technical verifyable details what Goo does and how it does it.

If you cant/wont do that, it just goes to prove my point that this is a vote of distrust towards consumers, which is what I personally find objectonable, both as a consumer and as a provider (developer).

Reply #137 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Zubaz, reply 1

Instructions are here: http://islanddog.wincustomize.com/articles.aspx?aid=169132

End of Zubaz's quote

 

Thank... sure that some other people have already ask something similar but due to the problem with the search function of the forum, i was not able to find any reply...

 

Ok, the method explain is perfect if i know the contact info of the people who will receive it for gift...

 

My goal was to buy 4-5 version of entrenchment... and organize a competition where a version of Entrenchment will be one of the price... no problem at all, i can order only once i have a winner !!!

 

By the way, do you make some promotion like : order 10 version of Entrenchment and you receive one more for free }:)

 

Did you get an auto-reply with a ticket #?  If not a spam filter may have prevented reception.

 

I have not think about this... since SPAM is directly removed on my ISP server... will need to check the rules...

 

By the way, thank you for the info and the reply

Reply #138 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 13

Again: As always, our retail CDs have nothing on them. Demigod, Sins, GalCiv, etc. There's nothing.

Again: As always, our digitally distributed content will have some sort of account validation. Demigod, Sins, GalCiv, etc.
End of Frogboy's quote

That's the issue here and why I am king of worried with Goo, some sort of account validation, until now this "sort of validation" was just a single validation once and for all when you downloaded or updated the game, after that you could copy the game to any computer you own or will ever own without ever have to reactivate the game again, for me it was as good as DRM-free.

But if SD starts using this "Goo" thing will it change ? will it means that, like Steam, like EA Securom, you will now have to reactivate you Stardock games everytime you change of computer/hardware ?

Reply #139 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 18

Enter GOO. The point of GOO is not to be "not DRM". As has been said, if you're absolutely against it in any way, shape, or form, then you're going to be unhappy for quite a long time. The goal of GOO is to provide publishers with enough of a sense of security that they won't use worse DRM schemes, while NOT doing all of the really bad things that other DRMs have done as above.
End of kryo's quote

Would it be possible to have some more details "how" is the system going to work, especially...

Quoting kryo, reply 18

- Has one-time activation, no subsequent phone homes.
End of kryo's quote

This is a little vague: one time activation... when? when you first install the game? everytime you install or update the game ? everytime you modify you hardware or change of computer? or is it up to the publisher to decide ?

Quoting kryo, reply 18

- No fixed number of activations that you have to beg to be extended.
- Does not include or require any hidden "cruft" on your machine.

End of kryo's quote

Well not really different than the other existing DRM but, does it means that it will enforced or is it up to the publisher to decide, for example Steam don't have any activation limit.. unless the publisher wants to add some. Also will something prevent the publisher from using Goo AND Securom or Goo and Steam?

Quoting kryo, reply 18

- Is vendor neutral, so DD platforms going out of business is much less worrysome.
End of kryo's quote

Yes... it's kind a safer but at one condition that there are actually multiple distributor using Goo and that they will continue to use it in the future.

If Goo doesn't catch up or if DD move to something else in one or two year we will be back at square one; it might be vendor neutral but you still need at least one server to activate your game.

Also how is it going to work, if a DD use Goo for one or two games it sell will you be able to use it to activate all Goo games or only the one that are on it's catalogue ? The diagram mentioned that "...allow publishers to let customer redownload from any partner.", what if the publisher don't want to, or if it's the publisher itself that goes under ?

And how is it going to work with regional restriction that publishers loves soo much, if you buy a goo game in country X will you be able with Goo to reactivate it using a DD located in country Y ?

Quoting kryo, reply 18

- Facilitates the exercise of first-sale rights.
End of kryo's quote

Well that's good for customer, but like I said in another thread, if there is something publishers hate and want to kill even more than piracy its second hand sales, so I wonder if they are realy going to like a DRM scheme that make it possible again.

 

Honestly I have to admit that I am not really convinced yet by Goo, yes the resale thing thing is a good thing (even though I never sold any games I bought until now), but the unlimited activation is not something new (Steam did it since the begining and also if publisher really wants to have activation limitation they wont use Goo anyway and those who don't care... well they don't have to use limitation with already existing DRM if they don't want to) and they are still, in my opinion, too many unknown variables about the "reactivate anywhere" part to make it really "safer".

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Reply #140 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting pyalot, reply 11

Goo makes it easy to offer what we have been doing fo rour own software to others and gives users and publishers the ability to transfer licenses (resell) and have a universal license system so that people can potentially redownload their game from anyone who carries that game.

Brad, I've plead for this before, but maybe it was droned out. Simply saying Goo is better and all isn't going any length to convince idiots like me that this is so. If you want to dispell doubts you'll have to disclose in acute technical verifyable details what Goo does and how it does it.

If you cant/wont do that, it just goes to prove my point that this is a vote of distrust towards consumers, which is what I personally find objectonable, both as a consumer and as a provider (developer).
End of pyalot's quote

I think you misunderstand my perspective. I don't care if people have doubts in the slightest.  I feel at this point our long history of pro-consumer actions speaks for itself.

There are plenty of people who won't be satisfied with anything other than the honor system of IP protection and those are people I hope never buy anything form us because I don't want them as customers.

There have been enough posts and discussions on the specifics for anyone who actually wants to learn about it.  

Heck, some months ago there were plenty of people who threw a fit because we require Impulse to download our games and get updates digitally even as they were clueless that IE can't download files greater than 2GB and we're not about to have people download Firefox or Opera or whatever.  

There are always people with unreasonable expectations.  And we hope those people will stay the heck away from us.

I would have been happy to have a better discussion on the topic but you started your thread out with a bunch of unresearched assumptions that were simply incorrect.  

Reply #141 from Stardock Forums Top

By the way, do you make some promotion like : order 10 version of Entrenchment and you receive one more for free
End of quote
I don't think so.  But you can email sales@stardock.com to get an official answer.

Reply #142 from Stardock Forums Top

There have been enough posts and discussions on the specifics for anyone who actually wants to learn about it.
End of quote

  1. The various bits and pieces strewn around the forum are re-iterations of your Goo marketing pitch
  2. There is no authoritative single source of accurate technical detail about how Goo works for us to see
  3. Asking what Goo really means for us in detail isn't unreasonable
  4. The authority to give an answer is you, Brad

In the interest of trust built by mutual respect I ask you to show this token of respect to us (You will no doubt find many internal logical faults with this I'm sure)

A somewhat personal note on your style of posts Brad:

  • The signal to noise ratio in your posts would be better if you wouldn't dillute it at every given opportunity with your fond disdain for the consumer, fanboy or critic. Now I'm not saying don't be a troll or don't speak your mind, I'm merely calling into question re-iterating one and the same disdainfull message over and over again all over the board. We got the message, loud and clear, it's implied by now, you do not have to say it just as often, really.
  • Personal insults may be great fun, but they do not make your claims any more believable.

I don't see what the fuzz about not answering the questions about Goo details is. If you're as consumer friendly as you claim that should be a nobrainer.

 

 

 

Reply #143 from Stardock Forums Top

I would have been happy to have a better discussion on the topic but you started your thread out with a bunch of unresearched assumptions that were simply incorrect.
End of quote

And not wanting to be a flamewar spoilsport the best thing that comes to your mind is descend into anti-consumer rants, personal insults and by all means no accurate technical detail.

Reply #144 from Sins Forums Top

And not wanting to be a flamewar spoilsport the best thing that comes to your mind is descend into anti-consumer rants, personal insults and by all means no accurate technical detail.
End of quote

Well anti-pyalot anyway.

The specific details are strewn around the forum. They're just not in this particular flame thread.  Some of these threads even have diagrams.

 

Reply #145 from Stardock Forums Top

The specific details are strewn around the forum. They're just not in this particular flame thread. Some of these threads even have diagrams.
End of quote

Putting it all in one place like a website's going to actually help you sell Goo you know. I bet every publisher that contracts you wants an understandable technical description.

Reply #146 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

And not wanting to be a flamewar spoilsport the best thing that comes to your mind is descend into anti-consumer rants, personal insults and by all means no accurate technical detail.
End of quote

You really don't want to give up on YOUR continuous ranting, do you?

Get a mirror, and look straight into it.

You claim being a developper above somewhere... okay, PM the proper SD staff and wait for an offer to an eventual business partnership which i doubt will ever happen for a number of reasons;

- Your personal attacks aimed at the CEO.

- Your opinions against DRM, GOO, name it.

- Your arrogance shown straight off Post #1.

What is it you are trying to do here exactly?

Push & shove everyone that stands in your way?

Want some technical details?

I'll give you some... copyrighted code and business solutions that StarDock creates.

 

Besides, with that account number, customer or forum member... i'd tend to agree with him, it was purposely created to torch this board into chaos until moderation steps in.

Ignoring you might be the only solution, from this moment on. Maybe some day, you'll get out of the Abyss.

Reply #147 from Demigod Forums Top

Putting it all in one place like a website's going to actually help you sell Goo you know. I bet every publisher that contracts you wants an understandable technical description.
End of quote

Sell to whom? You? 

Developers wanting to use Goo aren't hanging out on forums sifting through comments to get details. They sign NDAs and get the full development kit. 

Anything posted on the web is strictly there for the community's interest.  

Reply #148 from Sins Forums Top

Pyalot, I hope someday you realize how EA, and other compaines are out to sodomize every costomore with soemthing the size of the origonal Xbox, and the few like Stardock are the ones who help pull it out and tell us everything will be OK.

Untill then stop being a troll out to just p*ss off everyone.

Reply #149 from Stardock Forums Top

@Zyxpsilon, CarlitX

I'm curious, seriously. What point is it that you think you have, you feel is advanced by explicit language, flaming and personal insults? You're unable to argue an opinion on a factual level and you degrade yourself by resorting to personal attacks against the originator of the debate. You know I think the topic of my personal flaws is quite boring and it is not the topic of this thread. If you want to open a new thread about how big a wanker I am, by all means do so, I'll even cheer you on there since then at least you'll have found a discussion you're mentally capable of having, however childish and premature it will be.

Reply #150 from Stardock Forums Top

I'll summarize my judgement of this thread and its conclusion

  • Despite repeated requests for an authoritative source of technical detail (on goo) in the interest of consumers, no such answer/document was forthcoming.
    • Developers wanting to use Goo aren't hanging out on forums sifting through comments to get details. They sign NDAs and get the full development kit.
      End of quote
    • The specific details are strewn around the forum. They're just not in this particular flame thread. Some of these threads even have diagrams.
      End of quote
    • There have been enough posts and discussions on the specifics for anyone who actually wants to learn about it.
      End of quote
  • Blatant disregard and contempt for voiced consumer concern/issues has been displayed.
    • There are plenty of people who won't be satisfied with anything other than the honor system of IP protection and those are people I hope never buy anything form us because I don't want them as customers.
      End of quote
    • There are always people with unreasonable expectations. And we hope those people will stay the heck away from us.
      End of quote
    • If I had my way, we'd screen people before they were allowed to purchase our software in the first place
      End of quote
    • I hate to say it but you are literally the type of customer most tech companies hope to avoid.
      End of quote
  • The law of copyright is not held in any high esteem
    • There are plenty of people who won't be satisfied with anything other than the honor system of IP protection and those are people I hope never buy anything form us because I don't want them as customers.
      End of quote
  • The details of Goo DRM are only open under a NDA
    • Developers wanting to use Goo aren't hanging out on forums sifting through comments to get details. They sign NDAs and get the full development kit.
      End of quote
  • Repeatedly voiced concerns about the actual consumer friendlieness of this DRM (in terms of service sustainability etc.) have gone unanswered

My conclusion from these facts is that Goo (like any other DRM) is designed to restrict a users rights he otherwise enjoys, thereby stamping Stardocks own brand of copyright. The lack of forthcoming technical information to dispell any doubts about the best intentions of Stardock shows a vote of distrust towards the consumer.

If I was Brad I'd probably say that if you're cheering on (Goo) you're a fanboy, but I'd find that detriment to the discussion (which for my part I find concluded, and I'm inviting you to further degrade it by now carrying on to evade pointed questions and spew all the bile, hatred and consumer contempt you see fit).

For instance, if someone’s watermarking your personal info into an EXE and you’re cheering that on, you’re a fan boy.