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Sins on Steam?

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Sins on Steam?

from Stardock Forums
Just a suggestion that Sins should be made available on Steam. Hope I'm posting it in the right place.

For those who don't know, Steam is a digital distribution programme. You have an account, where you can access all your purchased games (it offers a varied and great selection). You can buy new games there. They can be accessed at any computer, by simply logging in. They auto-update. It has a great community.

I think Sins can benefit from this.

Now, you'll probably say "Stardock offers this!" I don't personally know how it works, but I'm guessing it works in a similar way to steam. So why should Sins be made available on steam? No doubt it will increase sales and add to the community.

I think it would be great if this was made possible. I know I'd buy it from Steam, as would many others. It makes things simpler having downloaded games together, rather than, say, Steam for some games, stardock for others, along with Direct2Drive etc.

In terms of just ease of use, it will make the game more accessible for many. Steam offers various other features which will be beneficial to Sins, such as messengers, server browser (which may not be applicable here) and community groups.

But the main point is that it will definitely provide a larger market and make it easier to acquire, thus meaning better sales etc.

Also, as there is no retail version available in Europe, it will make it much more easily available here.

It's not hard to get a game on Steam I would think. Lots of new games come out on it, whether they are big releases or from small independant developers.

What do you think?

I'm also hoping someone from Stardock sees this and considers it.

:)




124,658 views 143 replies
Reply #126 from Sins Forums Top
<- Gypsy says: "Stop fighting! Stop fighting everyone!" (But it's only a movie!)
Reply #127 from Stardock Forums Top
Just registered to add my humble opinion about Stardock/Steam idea.

I am a Steam user first of all. Though when it was first released, i was one of the most passionate Steam haters available those days :). Years passed and we have a much more refined Steam, so much infact i began to LOVE Steam. It's silly to actually love a piece of software i know, but i think it deserves it.

Biggest advantage of Steam is, there are lots of games available in it. Recently i started to repurchase some of my already retail owned games from Steam. Sometimes just for the sake of having it on steam, sometimes because i lost/scratched the disc. But mostly in all circumstances, i was a happy customer.

Still there are lots of people that have problems with Steam, but when you look at the big picture (15 million people using it), you'll see that people that are having problems are a very small percentage of all Steam users. Some people will always have problems with a specific software, if the product is still supported (Steam obviously is) usually these problems gets fixed after some time. Also, dont forget most of the problems are caused by the DEVELOPERS themselves, not by Steam, and it is developers responsibility to fix them.

Better or worse, there are lots of games available at steam. Valve's products are best in my opinion. Some people says Orange Box is not a fair deal as most people agrees. Perhaps from their own point of view it isnt. For the fans of FPS genre, i think there is no better deal currently available. If you dont care much about the genre itself however, its your own perspective. I for one choose quality over quantity, hence why i am so careful about picking my games.

I've been hearing about Gal Civ and more recently Sins for years, but never had the opportunity to try it out properly. With the recent release of Sins i was honestly waiting for Steam release to pick it up. I've been wondering why they havent made their products available from Steam for sometime. Until i started to actually search for the means to buy Sins digitally, i never ever heard about SDC or anything close to it. Though i'm sure people NEVER had any problems with it (not the software bugs but the reliability and trust as a distribution platform) but i'm still concerned about it. Mainly because i have so much games on Steam now, i really dont want a seperate software for Stardocks game.

Most of the people said Stardock doesnt use Steam because steam includes DRM. Yes its true Steam does use DRM for its games but as far as i know, only if developers wants to use it. Developers use it because most of them are paranoid about copy protection and piracy anyway (including independent developers which can go ridiculouslypainful lengths of anti-piracy techniques). Valve also released Steamworks which further allows Steam integration of the game to Steam, but it isnt mandatory in any way. Its all up to developer/publisher for what and what not to include as Steam release. If Stardock doesnt want to use DRM of Steam, they dont want to, they can just release it with a steam overlay IF the game is being run by the Steam. If not, than in can just as normally as it runs from SDC.

I think all people know the real reason why Stardock doesnt want to release their game to Steam. Stardock considers themselves as a direct competitor of Steam. I am OK with that, infact i really respect and admire that. I think the people that are quick to bash Valve or Steam should also have at least some objective thought before considering it "rubbish".

As for the buying games from Stardock Central (or impulse if its released already), i made my mind while writing this post. I will be unhappy at first, but who knows if i like it i may migrate to SDC permanently someday :p.

Note: Sorry for the big wall of text and the errors i made in it. I'm not a native english of speaker :) 
Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #128 from Stardock Forums Top
Just to clarify a thing about my post above, i cant find the edit button i'm afraid, if there is any.

Fixed below.
If Stardock doesnt want to use DRM of Steam, they dont have to, they can just release it with a steam overlay IF the game is being run by the Steam. If its not being run by steam, than it can run just as normally as it would from with/without SDC.

Now to think of it, it sounds a lot like SGC, kinda cool ;) 
Reply #129 from Stardock Forums Top
Sorry for the 3rd post but, i had to add.

Using a CD-Key is also one of the oldest Copy Protection methods. It is RM without a D and personally causes more inconvenience (losing it for example) than say, Steam ;). I'll see how Stardock implement it soon enough though.
Reply #130 from Sins Forums Top
So I finally had to install Steam. With my new video card I got the Black Box for free. So of course Steam had to be installed. All I can say is that Steam is a huge bag of suck. Just to play a game you have to run this 60 MB+ memory hog? Please. And you have to be on the Internet just to play single player. Worst. System. Ever.Stardock's system is so much better. You just use it to download and install your game and you're done. No need to be connected to the Internet or run this memory hog just to play your game.
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I can't possibly agree strong enough with you. After I buy a game I should be able to play single player off line (or mp over LAN if I wish) without having to have some DRM loaded software clogging up my registry.

Where I live the nets sporadic sometimes, and can be down for a couple days (or longer) after a bad storm. (Middle of nowhere hick town with more forest in a 5 mile area than people in case you're wondering.) So when the net goes down I enjoy still being able to play my games without having to wait for the net to come back up.

More than anything though Stardock lets you re-download the game (for free) if your purchased disc version gets scratched or lost. Way back when my one of my HL2 discs was too damaged to install the entire game program, Steam could care less and I was basically told to go buy another copy or do without.

So aye, like others have said. if SD started using steam as a requirement I'd swiftly give my money to another company.

Reply #131 from Sins Forums Top
Sorry for the 3rd post but, i had to add.Using a CD-Key is also one of the oldest Copy Protection methods. It is RM without a D and personally causes more inconvenience (losing it for example) than say, Steam . I'll see how Stardock implement it soon enough though.
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(pardon the double post but the edit button vanished again)

The way Stardock does it, they only ask for the key if you want to play MP online using ICO Otherwise you;re free to play the game SP or MP over LAN without having to touch the cd-key at all. It's hard to make it any easier than that without leaving off the cd-key entirely.

Reply #132 from Sins Forums Top
Sorry for the 3rd post but, i had to add.Using a CD-Key is also one of the oldest Copy Protection methods. It is RM without a D and personally causes more inconvenience (losing it for example) than say, Steam . I'll see how Stardock implement it soon enough though.
End of quote


A CD key is not copy protection. Copy protection is just what the name implies. Sins doesn't even require neither the CD key nor the disc to run, ergo is has absolutely no "copy protection". It has a one-time online (per windows install) authentication which enables you to download patches and content, and the CD key also opens up the Multiplayer option. Registering your cd key ties it to your Stardock account, so you can always re-download the game if you lose your disk.

So no, losing the physical key doesn't cause more inconvenience.
Reply #133 from Sins Forums Top
Using a CD-Key is also one of the oldest Copy Protection methods. It is RM without a D and personally causes more inconvenience (losing it for example) than say, Steam . I'll see how Stardock implement it soon enough though.
End of quote


Steam handles registration of retail copies of Valve games with CD-keys. And in that case such registration is mandatory. Last I saw (HL2), if you didn't have internet you couldn't play retail copies of Valve games or even install them, period (even single-player-only games).

With our games, you can get a retail copy and never so much as set your mouse on our site or SDC/Impulse. It's only needed if you want to get updates. Which is obviously going to need internet anyway.

It's also worth noting that to sell things on Steam you'd need to give Valve a pretty significant cut. So not only does going our own way give us more freedom and the ability to make things better, but it also means nobody else is taking a piece of our pie :)
Reply #134 from Sins Forums Top
Steam is quite possibly the worst distribution program I have ever used. Ironclad wouldn't cater to their enemy/P.O.S.
Reply #135 from Stardock Forums Top
A CD key is not copy protection. Copy protection is just what the name implies. Sins doesn't even require neither the CD key nor the disc to run, ergo is has absolutely no "copy protection". It has a one-time online (per windows install) authentication which enables you to download patches and content, and the CD key also opens up the Multiplayer option. Registering your cd key ties it to your Stardock account, so you can always re-download the game if you lose your disk.So no, losing the physical key doesn't cause more inconvenience.
End of quote


I was talking about more general use of CD-Keys, not just Stardocks. Also noticed i said RM, aka Rights Management. I didnt said anything about copy protection. Still, a CD-Key or a program that you have to run is still "DRM" in my eyes no matter how its presented.

I dont consider subtle DRM's a bad thing so it is ok with me, but honestly, it is still some kind of "protection", otherwise we wouldnt need any CD-Keys in the first place. Setup would have created and submitted a random CD-Key if you really needed to track sale/install numbers and you would just upload the patches into any patch hosting site so you dont even need extra bandwidth.

If Stardock REALLY hated the copy protection and DRM, they wouldnt even used a software like SDC or a CD-Key system in the first place. Make no mistake, as subtle this is, it is still a kind of RM.

Steam handles registration of retail copies of Valve games with CD-keys. And in that case such registration is mandatory. Last I saw (HL2), if you didn't have internet you couldn't play retail copies of Valve games or even install them, period (even single-player-only games). With our games, you can get a retail copy and never so much as set your mouse on our site or SDC/Impulse. It's only needed if you want to get updates. Which is obviously going to need internet anyway.It's also worth noting that to sell things on Steam you'd need to give Valve a pretty significant cut. So not only does going our own way give us more freedom and the ability to make things better, but it also means nobody else is taking a piece of our pie
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Thats more valid arguament than "Stardock hates DRM" honestly. I didnt knew about SDC but now that i know about it, i understand the reason behind you decision :)
Reply #136 from Stardock Forums Top
Steam is quite possibly the worst distribution program I have ever used. Ironclad wouldn't cater to their enemy/P.O.S.
End of quote


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but honestly, if it was that bad (or stayed that bad since its launch was an epic fail in my eyes) they wouldnt even have 15 million users, and 250+ games. Games from very large publishers and developers alike. It still has flaws like any other software, but hopefully, they will get ironed out.

When minimized it takes 7MB RAM and in games only takes 20MB RAM. If 256MB RAM was still a recommended setting for games i would understand the hassle, but even Vista uses 400-600MB in 32-Bit and up to 1GB RAM in 64-Bit. In todays standarts its insignificant.

It doesnt do anything like having limited number of downloads, installs, having to activate the product or banning your HARDWARE to prevent you from playing. It prevents you from playing the same game from different computers at the same time, but you accept that term in nearly all games EULA when you accept it anyway.

Only hassle i may think of is having to update your game if there is an update available before going into offline mode.
Reply #137 from Sins Forums Top

It's also worth noting that to sell things on Steam you'd need to give Valve a pretty significant cut. So not only does going our own way give us more freedom and the ability to make things better, but it also means nobody else is taking a piece of our pie
End of quote

I don't think that's fair to say. My understanding is that Steam is pretty generous to developers and publishers.

Not to disagee with my own teammates but I do like Steam.  I just think Impulse is going to be substantially better. It'll have basically the same games, more features, and support non-games, mini expansions, more multiplayer options, etc.

Impulse is very good for Steam as it will keep Valve updating and improving Steam (just as they would have otherwise but also with more ideas exchanged).

Reply #138 from Sins Forums Top
I don't know how much Valve charges for stuff to be sold on steam - probably a percentage of the sales - but Stardock would probably lose a considerable amount of money they'd be able to keep if they distributed through TGN instead.

With Sins already being among the highest-selling PC games of 2008, I don't think they would benefit from "increased exposure" or whatever else Steam would give.

Besides all this, Stardock knows very well that their own platform (SDCentral/Impulse) is - no offense intended - in the stone age compared to Steam. What they need are more big-ticket games on there to buy them credibility, and Sins is one of only a very, very small number they currently have at their disposal. I mean... let's list them:
-Galciv
-Galciv 2
-Sins
.....
-Space Rangers 2 is IMHO an excellent game but it's not a *BIG* title
-Painkiller? Wow, Painkiller's on here... never played it but it's the first one in the list up to "P" that I've even heard of.
.....
That's about it. I'm a hardcore PC gamer and have been for the last 10 years and I haven't even heard of any of the others.

SD is probably more concerned with Sins functioning as a vehicle for getting SDC/TGN on people's computers than they are with slightly increased sales figures. Once they can say, "We've got SDC installed on over 500,000 computers", suddenly they have a much better chance of potential developers giving them serious consideration. Then they get a small percentage of their game's sales, and then they're in the exponential growth phase and don't have to try so hard anymore, they can focus on doing the things they want and they'll have more money to do it.

God, I should be a financial planner or something...
Reply #139 from Sins Forums Top
I uninstalled Steam eleven months ago :

its main-program update-process crashed my (otherwise flawless) PC in a very nasty fashion. And they (Valve/Steam) then had no tech support whatsoever : none!

I have never experienced the least problem with StarDockCentral.

I do not know what "Impulse" is, even though I see it mentioned on this forum.

Will SDC disappear when that mysterious Impulse gets launched?
Reply #140 from Sins Forums Top
I don't think that's fair to say. My understanding is that Steam is pretty generous to developers and publishers.

Not to disagee with my own teammates but I do like Steam. I just think Impulse is going to be substantially better. It'll have basically the same games, more features, and support non-games, mini expansions, more multiplayer options, etc.

Impulse is very good for Steam as it will keep Valve updating and improving Steam (just as they would have otherwise but also with more ideas exchanged).
End of quote


It has been quite interesting getting back in to gaming... A friend of mine showed me Team Fortress 2 not long ago and after building a new pc I figured the Orange Box would be both nostalgic as well as provide a couple of engines to stress test my new rig. So far I have not had a problem at all with Steam. Granted, I have only been a user of Steam for the last month and a half. What gets me about this thread, and likely millions of other similar threads out there, is that the services being provided are not very customer focused. They seem more worried about each other than their customer experience. Having these two services (or are there more?) fight over who gets to provide what is just ridiculous. To make customers happy both services should be able to provide all available pc games to its user base. Its likely to happen someday and I hope the two worthy services think about this before a giant like Amazon comes in and takes over. There are plenty of other ways to compete for a user base so why make it difficult for your customers?

I'm a bit picky about what I install on my box. I guess that comes from being a sysadmin. The idea of having to install more than one app/game inventory system just doesn't...float my boat. :-) Does it mean I wont be buying Sins ever? No, but I'll likely not be buying it for quite some time. Same went for Crysis. I ended up borrowing that from a friend...yet if it were available on the service I used I would not have thought twice about buying it.

More power to the developers of the services like these. In fact, I develop and maintain a similar application/database for a large corporation's software inventory. Its my job to provide our user base with front-end that makes finding the software easy as well as automating the entire installation process (the fun part). It is my hope (as a potential user of any service such as this) that similar customer focus is given sometime in the future.

UPDATE:
Looks like Amazon may well be attempting to take over the market...
http://www.downloadsquad.com/2008/02/17/amazon-software-download-store-to-include-video-games-soon/
Reply #141 from Sins Forums Top
I have steam. I like the games I have on there.I hate steam.I hate Valve.I hate Garry Newman.All are involved with steam (or are steam) and can't get their servers working right.
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Give one recent example of this?
Reply #142 from Sins Forums Top
That is the funniest post in the entire world. 'It is ridiculous for services to compete, all games should be available on all services'.

What is a 'corporation'? What is a 'market'? What is 'profit' or 'investment'?

Hilariously, he even says 'comes from being a sysadmin', when he says that he didn't buy Crysis due to it not being on Steam. Because Steam somehow makes game installs less invasive, right? :D

Steam is a fine service which has dramatically improved from it's utterly terrible launch (hopefully Impulse will follow this pattern). I won't use it because primarily the games they have don't float my boat (aside from Audiosurf), but also because it's so goddamn slow and ugly and irritating and intrusive.

Frankly, the very existence of 'zomg steem is bettah dudez' threads at this point in Impulse's lifecycle shows how obsessed some people are with 'Team Steam'. When Steam was a few weeks old, it was a nigh-unusable pile of crap that would leave most users hanging about, famously 'connecting' and people speculated it was already doomed. But hey, people quote Steam numbers (ie, installed base = 15M etc) even though Valve leverage (ie, force purchasers to install Steam) some of the biggest PC games to create that base, and there's no reason to suppose even a majority of the people who installed Steam to activate Portal or HL2 or whatever ever bought anything else or used any Steam features.
Reply #143 from Sins Forums Top
I dont like the steam idea. Some one siad it was handy when you got a new computer you just install steam and the n dowload the games. Which sounds great except the steam servers a craptaculery slow, so slow that it would be way faster to just instal the game of the CD. As for buying games Steam is just like 99.9% of distributors and publishers, their nazis for the copy protection, regonal lockouts and price gouging. The community part is nice thou. But I would still like to have the CD in my hands so when it gets lost i can only blam my self, unlike is a server crashed and they lost it.