LRM Neutered the Game !!!!!and also pirates die in first 5 mins?

from Stardock Forums
I have been reading various posts about how the TEC unit called the LRM FRIGATE the most used unit .And is almost the only thing people use when playing that faction,giong as far as to say the main strategy is to tech up to LRM FRIGATE and spam them for the win.

So last night I played A medium random map with 4 players A.I set to normal difficulty,went ahead and tried the tactic on ai opponents and proceded to whip their asses.

Ok and fine enough right? NO!!!!! the reason is. I never researched anything but 3 techs
artic ,volcanic colonization and lrm frigate. never built but one capital ship. it was not needed if you do the math. you can purchase 12 lrm frigates for about the same cost
all i needed was to increase my fleet capacity .by end game I lost count of how many LRM frigates i had but suffice to say it was alot .

the only downfall with this approach was it took forever to bombard and capture a planet due to only one ship being able.but this was just a test

either way I ended up with ships in every planets gravity well just sitting waiting for the constructor ships to build so i can kill em again ,untill my one capital ship makes its way there to finally capture the planet.

so there i sat with ships in all 19 planets wells . already owning 2/3 of the system
the enemy was crippled and could do nothing .

the pirates ,,, I am not sure what happened but in first 5 mins of the game they just were dead all of the sudden .

which sucked . i like the pirates . hell half the time i let em come my way for the experience.but not this game .:[

so my point of all this is . LRM frigates makes the tec tech tree useless .there is no need to research any further than it. so what to do about this?
Make it more expensive ?
move it up the tech tree further?
limit its numbers able to be deployed?(this is my suggestion make its supply higher.like 5x as high as it is)


well theres my 2 cents .

has anyone else ever encountered pirates getting killed instantly on med or large maps?

24,782 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Wow. Sheesh. If you want to combat LRM, use bombers/fighters... I'm pretty sure that their missiles are useless against those little gnats. You are right to voice your concern, however, this seems like a HUGE jump in the reactionaty direction. You know what a see-saw is? If you radically shift things left, then right, then back again, it will never be balanced. Let's see what others think, neh? If it's such a prevalent tactic and so imbalanced, others will cry out as well.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
iunno about pirates, but the AI is currently good but has no real strategies programmed into it, what it mostly does now is mass cobalts, which does get raped by LRMs. Also, since the AI isnt all that good at tactical, It is really only good lategame when the strategic element gets to come out.

As for LRM spam being the only viable solution, fighters (built from light carriers or from your capships) completely RAPE LRMs, so dont bother trying it against an experienced player
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
So last night I played A medium random map with 4 players A.I set to normal difficulty,went ahead and tried the tactic on ai opponents and proceded to whip their asses.
End of quote


That it works on AI doesn't mean much. Human players can easily beat LRM spams.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
LRM Frigates are good, yes, but a human player can beat them (the AI can't, because the AI is an idiot; this is not GalCiv 2) fairly easy by using bombers.

LRM Frigates with Flak Frigate escort would be a fairly powerful combination, though.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I never researched anything but 3 techs
artic ,volcanic colonization and lrm frigate. never built but one capital ship.
End of quote



either way I ended up with ships in every planets gravity well just sitting waiting for the constructor ships to build so i can kill em again ,until my one capital ship makes its way there to finally capture the planet.
End of quote


LRM Frigate is good, no doubts there. That doesn't mean the tactic is unbeatable. Just like in WCIII when everyone did huntress rush, then people like me developed the bear rush to counter it. And people like Tillerman just micro'd three hero's to crush you (or me, in my case *cries*).

We're gonna need more data and more multiplayer games observed to tell if what you say is truly an issue.

Turn up the difficulty of the game and see what happens with your uber strategy. Either that, or play multiplayer yourself.

Edit: Until then you can fear the awesome power of my heathen Gods! Advent FTW
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Pah, small frigates, bombers, heavy cruisers, and generally any well balanced force will make mince meat of LRMS. They can't really stand up to a fleet that has a number of smaller support ships equal to theirs, they will die.

Capital ships will get utterly raped by them, though.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
LRM has one armor as default, just get something fast and zoom up to them.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Capital ships will get utterly raped by them, though.
End of quote


Not as badly as to the Vasari Assailants, that do anti-capitol damage :P

That said, as others have pointed out, fighters work really well against them -- and if your opponent waits long enough in the game to pull them out, Kodiaks rip through them. (I had a game against a guy who thought LRM spam was the way to go, it dragged on long enough for me to get Kodiaks and it was not pretty... for him anyway.)
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
You guys are seriously missing the point: The problem is not that *you* can't defend against the LRM ships (because you can), the problem is that the *AI* doesn't seem able to do so, making LRMs the win-all strategy and therefore the single player experience much less fun.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I was in a 4 player game the other day and the one guy massed LRMs and wiped the floor with all the rest of us. Even the Advent carrier player.

I don't care for the TEC too much, but it was too tempting a thing not to try, and with 90% LRMs I beat my first AI on hard today. I researched more than the OP, had them all insanely upgraded by the end, but my Sova with fighters was all the escort they ever needed.

I am not sure if it is a question of being overpowered or not, but I am a pretty terrible player, so I think the strategy is just far too easy to pull off for it's effectiveness than anything else.

Biggest thing I noticed versus any other tactic I have tried so far was that it was wonderful not to have to worry about my LRMs being gimped by the lack of antimatter after a long transit. It let me move them about more often without fear of them being useless after a few jumps. Even when they had to track all the way across the system to get to my fleet they showed up at 100% effectiveness, I thing their cluster missile upgrade might need to be antimatter dependent.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
iunno about pirates, but the AI is currently good but has no real strategies programmed into it, what it mostly does now is mass cobalts, which does get raped by LRMs.
End of quote


But why should LRM's beat Cobalts? LRMs are artillery units. They should never beat straight up combat units. It's the exact same issue as the Siege Units - they should never be able to do damage when there's an enemy presence unless the Siege, Artillery or any other kind of support unit also has a mixed support fleet to back it up (or to back up, as it actually would be).
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
LRMs beat cobalts in that they are more cost-effective to PRODUCE, a 1v1 between a cobalt and an LRM is going to be a win for the cobalt, but LRMs are cheaper to produce, allowing you to get more of them quicker
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

You guys are seriously missing the point: The problem is not that *you* can't defend against the LRM ships (because you can), the problem is that the *AI* doesn't seem able to do so, making LRMs the win-all strategy and therefore the single player experience much less fun.
End of quote


Then fix the AI :D
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I seen a guy spamming LRMs Assailants left and right. I don't get it thou since it has never killed me :/

Also i think their range is what makes em very good! Cobalts have to move around a lot to re target.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Seems to me the solution is to improve the AI. Not change the LRMs.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
LRMs beat Cobalts because everything beats Cobalts.

And yes, the AI does need improving. Fortunately, Stardock presumably has some input on future development for Sins, and Stardock is a confirmed master of the fine art of AI development.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Make 1.04 the AI patch with smarter comps and better diplomacy. :)
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

Seems to me the solution is to improve the AI. Not change the LRMs.


Of course improving the AI is always preferable to nerfing a feature just because the AI can't cope with it... and if you have the time/money/inclination to do this, I'm all for it!

Oh, but the GalCivII:TA AI is more important, so improve that one first.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Bombers do 2x damage to LRMs. That is their counter. You can leave a carrier fleet at the edge of the gravity well out of their range and basically maul them with bombers.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Bombers do 2x damage to LRMs. That is their counter. You can leave a carrier fleet at the edge of the gravity well out of their range and basically maul them with bombers.
End of quote


Where do you get information like this? I read somewhere that fighters are actually better against some ships than bombers. :O

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
I hate to be the guy who shouts "noob" but if you find yourself in a position where you cannot move forward due to enemies attacking you, it is mostly your own fault - if you cannot create a diplomatic situation where you have only 1 or 2 enemies on an 8 player map, then you deserve all the punishment you can get.

Also remember, this is sim game so losing IS an option - it's not some FPS (although I love 'em) where the only end to the game is killing off all the enemy.

And the gauss turrets work if you cluster them together rather than loop them around your planets.