Planetary Invasion in Waves

Or how to have your cake and eat it too.

from GalCiv2 Forums
So you've got a fleet of four troop transports parked outside an enemy planet. Your frigates wipe out the rest of his orbital fleet, leaving that nice, juicy, PQ 20 ready for invasion.

You take a look at the options for invasion. You have 2,000 troops. They have 12,000 defenders. Your advantage factor is 5 to 1, not quite enough to be assured of a win. It would be great if you could use mass drivers or tidal disruption, but you don't really want to ruin those nice improvements your enemy had set up for you already. Maybe you could use mini soldiers, or information warfare, but that's so expensive, not to mention it's less effective to lower the enemy's advantage number when it's already so low.

Then it hits you: metagaming can help.

You've noticed that the game only records planetary damage after your invasion succeeds: on a failed invasion, you haven't really seen any planetary damage incurred. You split your fleet of four transports into one fleet of three and a singleton in reserve. You go for mass drivers and send in your 1,500 troops. Against 12,000 defenders, there's not much of a chance to win, but they reduce the planet's defenses to about 2,000 troops (that 100-200% boost to attacker advantage helps a lot.) Against 2,000 defenders, your 5-to-1 advantage with 500 troops is more than sufficient. You switch to Traditional Warfare for the second wave. Your 500 troops invade and wipe out the defenders: there are only 50 or so survivors in the invading force, but that's more than enough to secure the colony.

Best of all, you now have your very own PQ 20 in all its glory to call your own. And look! It was the enemy's research capital! Time to go for Huge Hulls. . .

Aren't you glad you exploited a game mechanic to your own twisted ends?
strategies
21,010 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, it doesn't make much sense that there is no damage on a failed invasion. This needs to be addressed.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, the easy way would be for planetary damage to take place before the troops invade, but that could lead to some interesting abuses, like sending in wave after wave of transports with one soldier only and using Tidal Disruption to wipe out the enemy's infrastructure. . . may as well just include orbital bombardment as an option then.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Maybe it should factor in the percentage of the troop module capacity used. For example, you'd only be able to get half the maximum damage if you only filled your troop modules to 50% of capacity. Putting in a single trooper would then only let you get less than 1% of the effect, at best.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
One of the things I'd like to see is the damage done scaled to the length of the battle.

Sometimes, I know I'll lose with traditional invasion, but with the 100-200% increase with mass drivers, it's really no contest at all, and I win with 900-950m troops left (starting with 1000m).

In that situation, the battle didn't last long (obviously), so the damage should be less. If I have 50m troops left at the end of the battle, then obviously, it was a knock-down-drag-out affair, and the damage should be more. From what I can see right now, the damage done is completely random.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Maybe something like the game checks for planetary damage every turn? Instead of "50 percent of planetary improvements destroyed" something like "50% chance per round of a planetary improvement being destroyed?" Then the little map up top could provide some more useful information, like showing your mass drivers raining down and a little animation blasting the enemy factory into smithereens or something.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Damage to a planet on a failed invasion is not likely to happen. Stardock chose to not include planetary bombardment in the game (where you use ships to blast the planet from orbit, either before an invasion, or with no intent of invasion), with the exception of the spore ships. This prevents "scorched-earth" policies in war, where you focus not on capturing planets, but bombarding them to oblivion. Traditionally in games, it's easier to do this than stage invasions. It makes sense, the same weapons you can use against ships that carry a billion people should be effective against planets. It also tends to eliminate the need to focus on ground troops, as well as leaving AI empires that war each other in the stone age, while the human player (who is smarter when waging war) with a huge economical/industrial edge vs empires subjected to the "scorched-earth" policy.

With that in mind, I doubt that failed invasions will do damage to the enemy planet in GC2 ever. The reason is that it allows you to effectively do a back-door "scorched-earth" policy, using pseudo-"spore" style ships consisting of a single transport module and 1 trooper (where all you do is land your lone trooper, but select the most damaging style invasion method). At least with the exploit mentioned in this thread, you need at least 2 separate transports. Lesser of two evils, in a sense.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Damage to a planet on a failed invasion is not likely to happen. Stardock chose to not include planetary bombardment in the game (where you use ships to blast the planet from orbit, either before an invasion, or with no intent of invasion), with the exception of the spore ships. This prevents "scorched-earth" policies in war, where you focus not on capturing planets, but bombarding them to oblivion. Traditionally in games, it's easier to do this than stage invasions. It makes sense, the same weapons you can use against ships that carry a billion people should be effective against planets. It also tends to eliminate the need to focus on ground troops, as well as leaving AI empires that war each other in the stone age, while the human player (who is smarter when waging war) with a huge economical/industrial edge vs empires subjected to the "scorched-earth" policy.

With that in mind, I doubt that failed invasions will do damage to the enemy planet in GC2 ever. The reason is that it allows you to effectively do a back-door "scorched-earth" policy, using pseudo-"spore" style ships consisting of a single transport module and 1 trooper (where all you do is land your lone trooper, but select the most damaging style invasion method). At least with the exploit mentioned in this thread, you need at least 2 separate transports. Lesser of two evils, in a sense.


That's kinda dumb, in my opinon.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I know it doesnt make sence to have no damage from a failed invasion but I still think it should be left alone. Not only are there better things for the devs to fix / add to the game, but I think of it from my point of view. So far everone has discussed this from the point of view of the human attacking an AI. But, but if I get invaded and I've taken the time to have a huge soldering adavantage, I'd hate to still lose my improvements or worse, PQ of the planet. Imagine getting attacked and winning only to find that you no longer have a manufacturing capital.

There are a lot of things that can be fixed in ground invasions but in this game its really just a minor point and we should take it as it is. I personally think it would be cool if some of the native population survives and becomes citizes. I mean are ALL 12 Billion people fighting? Think about the morale challenges, rebellion threats etc. It could get really deep and involved. I'd like it but i don't think the dev's would.

Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, if it fails, perhaps it failed because the mass drivers or tidal disruption etc. didnt fire correctly and the troops who THOUGHT they would have the advantage really didn't. Then, both sides still take damage to troops, but the defenders avoid the collateral damage and avoid the loss of planetary structures. That might be dumb in your opinion, too, though. I know thinking this way helps me to sleep better at night when I stress about this game bug.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Another instance in which invasion waves can be effective is if you are using Information Technology warfare. Send in successive transports using this and you can sway many more people to your side than just sending in one fleet of transports and using that tactic once. I did notice that sometimes after the first transport, the enemy morale has gone up to 100% (all the dissenters died in the first wave?), so you cant use it again. This only seems to happen some of the time though, and I dont know the underlying reason.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That can get really expensive, though, and gets less effective the more you do it since it correlates to the population size and loyalty of the race. On a planet with 12000 troops you might sway 2000+ depending on their loyalty. When there are only say, 2000 troops, you pay 800 BC to sway 200. And it does change after you do it one or 2 times. I think it works similar to Morale. The troop loyalty is easier to control and is higher as the population goes down, the same way morale tends to be higher on planets with smaller populations.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wow, I don't think I've had an invasion fail. Must be the large numbers of troop modules on all my transports. That said, I think it's pure cheese to erase any planetary damage if the attack fails.

I would be happy to see this loop hole closed. The suggestion that the amount of bombardment damage is proportional to percent of troops on board makes a lot of sense. If you're willing to lose 1 billion or 2 troops to cause serious damage to a planet without winning, I'd say that's very believable. Especially for those evil races out there. That would keep the scorched earth folks limited to the amount of population that they're willing to lose, but would provide for a credible threat should a transport show up on your door. Might get the AI to concentrate more on taking out those troopships.
Heck, watching the AI send in a fleet of 10 transports would send chills down your spine, if you knew that they had planetary bombardment tech and a willingness to use it.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
IMO, if you're going to allow planets to take damage w/o capture, you should go all the way and allow planet damage w/o any troops at all. A half-way method like partial damage for an unsuccessful invasion would yield just as many complaints and people claiming it "dumb". Either you allow damage to a planet when you don't capture it or you don't. If you do, you should allow glassing of planets, IMO. Requiring troops in order to bomb the planet is kind of silly. Imagine the air force requiring infantrymen on board in order to launch air strikes. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Currently the system is simple. You invade, and you have the choice of making your invasion easier or not. The price? If you win, you pay the penalty of the easier fight. The damage to the planet isn't really bombardment (even though it's described as such). It's simply an offer: You can get an artificial boost to your invasion, but the price is that you get a lesser planet if you win. That's the deal that DA offers you.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
themocaw: Well, the easy way would be for planetary damage to take place before the troops invade, but that could lead to some interesting abuses, like sending in wave after wave of transports with one soldier only and using Tidal Disruption to wipe out the enemy's infrastructure...may as well just include orbital bombardment as an option then.

ColdSteelRain: Maybe it should factor in the percentage of the troop module capacity used. For example, you'd only be able to get half the maximum damage if you only filled your troop modules to 50% of capacity. Putting in a single trooper would then only let you get less than 1% of the effect, at best.

It should be proportionate to the percentage of defenders killed not the percentage of troop module used. Regular troop modules hold 500 but advanced hold 1000, plus an invasion can utilize multiple modules on a single transport and multiple transports. The percentage of defenders killed is a measure of how successful the invasion was. Did the defender easily repel the invasion with high population and soldiering or did he just barely hold the planet.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally, if one of my planets was attacked, I'd expect some planetary damage even if I won, it only makes sense. But if you were to do that, you'd need to give the player more options in defending. It would be cool if, like the attacker, the defender had different strategies for defense.

Another idea would be (and this may already be the case) if the planet being attacked was within the range of a Military Starbase, then it gains the defensive benefits of that starbase during the invasion.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
What I would LOVE is to be able to command the different armies in a planetary invasion. If you made it so that more tiles were available on a planet to walk around on, then you can land 5-10 armies and have them march around at your bidding like in Civilization III. Also they should be able to last more than a week, so you can have a jointly occupied planet.

This might be good for GCIII along with maybe a 3d map. :) 
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Maybe each planet invasion should be its own RTS game. Just Kidding... or am I?

Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Causing damage even during a failed invasion would be fine, if the damage was reversable. Using mass drivers would not permanently destroy a tile, but turn it either red or a new color, say purple. Then add a new terraforming tech "invasion cleanup" or something, and make that tech immune to orbital terrformers and neutral civs. The tiles wouldn't be entirely gone, but you have to clean them up before you can reuse them.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Another instance in which invasion waves can be effective is if you are using Information Technology warfare. Send in successive transports using this and you can sway many more people to your side than just sending in one fleet of transports and using that tactic once. I did notice that sometimes after the first transport, the enemy morale has gone up to 100% (all the dissenters died in the first wave?), so you cant use it again. This only seems to happen some of the time though, and I dont know the underlying reason.
End of quote


I always thought there was a direct relationship between (100% - morale of invaded planet) * (population of invaded planet) and the number of enemy soldiers choosing your side.
After the first transport, the enemy population has been reduced twice:
1) Enemy soldiers defecting
2) Casualties among population
The effect of a reduced population increases morale significantly: even with 6B population the negative impact of the population is often in the range of -20% morale.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Stardock, please close this loophole in future patch.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd like to directly comandeer every single one of my 5 billion soldiers. I want to set up ranks, tactical orders, want to be able to give every single soldier a certain weapon. I want to control the type of descend through the athmosphere, want to set landing points and places and types of inhabitants to attack first.

But then, as every living soul on the planet gets killed anyway....I just might use 10000 Neutron bombs and be done with it.

well...who cares. The planetary invasion is a joke in this game and will always be. While it certainly could be better, that's not what this game is about.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think it's fine the way it is. I mean, it would stink to have a wonderful PQ 20+ suddenly ruined by an enraged AI with a few transports.

It would also make defending your planets a top priority, meaning fewer ships out and about to actually fight the war. It would also make planets more of a liability, since to effectively defend them you would need pretty beefy ships in orbit around each one.

As for splitting up transport fleets before invading, I have always done that. Yeah, it might be cheating in a way, but it sure is nice to be able to take down a 12B population with 2B troops.

I think invasions would be cooler if you had to conquer a planet improvement by improvement. Hence, a fully developed PQ 20 would take a very long time to conquer, and having multiple owners per planet would be possible. At the same time, the starport would be invaluable, allowing whichever side that controlled it to hold the planet against reinforcements. I think it would make the game far more fun if the invasions were more than "click to win."
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So if you are Evil, splitting your invasion force just makes sense. Because you get No Mercy Invasion centers and invasion tactics are FREE.

I do like the one suggestion wherein you can "repair" invasion damage. Make it a tech with a construction cost. I can see that being perfectly viable.

IMHO.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well then its just one more tech to research, not a big deal. Unless the AI fails to get it like it sometimes does with disease cure.

Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd like to directly comandeer every single one of my 5 billion soldiers. I want to set up ranks, tactical orders, want to be able to give every single soldier a certain weapon. I want to control the type of descend through the athmosphere, want to set landing points and places and types of inhabitants to attack first.

But then, as every living soul on the planet gets killed anyway....I just might use 10000 Neutron bombs and be done with it.

well...who cares. The planetary invasion is a joke in this game and will always be. While it certainly could be better, that's not what this game is about.
End of quote


OR we could just have every single planet be a full blown game of Civilization.