Pretentious the lot of you!!

No one pretents around here.

We are all open and above board.

Step away from the crack pipe...

That said,,I do belive "Bomber" Harris should have been prosecuted as being the commanding officer and driving force behind the terror bombings over Germany.

Step away from the crack pipe...

Yeah, that's what it is, I'm smoking too much crack. Whatever. Realize that I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion towards anything, just stating mine. Either one of us could be right or could be wrong, we just don't know. Therefore, opinions formed are all we have. I wish the world was a rosy and perfect place like some of you believe it is, and for all I know, maybe your part of the world is like that for you. I say more power to you if that is the case. People just need to be more open minded towards things that should be questioned (as well as answered, ahem) instead of sweeping them under the rug and out of existence.

Either one of us could be right or could be wrong, we just don't know.

Actually,,you ARE wrong regardless of keeping minds open or not as I DO know what I am talking about in this particular case.
Allied bombings are NOT included in the camp death toll.
Not all concentration camps were dedicated death camps. In fact there were only six of those: Auschwitz-Birkenau,,Belzec,,Chelmno,,Majdanek,,Sobibor and Treblinka.
None of these were bombed during the war,,being located in Poland.
Baden-Belsen,,Ravenbrück and the other (slave)labour camps were indeed struck at the end of the war,,but only very minor damages were noted as
1) the attacks were preformed by returning JaBos
2) most of them had already ceased all business due to the closing frontline.


Regarding the bombings of the German cities,,they were conducted with the outspoken intent of disrupting,,dehouse and kill the civilian workforce.
Such a goal cannot be described as anything but atricious.

Not all concentration camps were dedicated death camps. In fact there were only six of those: Auschwitz-Birkenau,,Belzec,,Chelmno,,Majdanek,,Sobibor and Treblinka.

And Dachau? Maybe 7?

Dachau was a very bad place, but not a Zyklon B shower place. Check the wiki Dachau concentration camp

There's the wiki and there's actually visiting the place.

There are two gigantic ovens at Dachau. Given what the conditions were when the Americans found it, I doubt the ovens were for baking cookies.

Dachau was the experimental camp. Before something went to all camps, it was tried in Dachau first.

And cremation ovens has what to do with this?

Never said that the other camps were pleasant places.
Lot of brutal things happened in them as well.
The main difference is that death was regarded as a welcome byproduct in most camps just as it was in the Sibirian Gulags,,but in the six listed above,,death WAS the product.

What do you do in the wintertime when the sun gets cold?

Umm...umm... I put on a coat!

Umm, didn't this get somewhat off topic? First everyone was discussing grammer nazis, and now we're talking about real Nazis. Isn't this what history class or a history based site is for?

Isn't this what history class or a history based site is for?

Yes. Unfortunatly,,you youngsters never listen to what the teachers says,,so we have to improvise classes where you least expect them.

Yes. Unfortunatly,,you youngsters never listen to what the teachers says,,so we have to improvise classes where you least expect them.

You youngsters.   

If I remember correctly, when we were that age we were pretty much the same, at least I was.   

Feeling your age, Mumble?

Just have a birthday, and all of a sudden you feel 10 years older?

Actually,,you ARE wrong regardless of keeping minds open or not as I DO know what I am talking about in this particular case.

I would be very interested to know how you have come to know so much about said topics. Also, a message to those who feel that politics/history have nothing to do with this game I say you are wrong. This game has some very realistic political situations which pretty much mirror our past, current, and future events in one shape or another. The way in which we "rule our empire" in this game is based on what our beliefs are, and those beliefs are/were formed by our political/religious/capitalistic influences and upbringing. Zing pow.

when we were that age we were pretty much the same

Speak for yourself...I've been an old fart since I was 17 hehehe

(yes,,those were the days... now I'm turning 32)

(yes,,those were the days... now I'm turning 32)

And you feel that's old? Wait until 36. Actually, I realized that it was all downhill at age 30. When just getting out of bed can cause injury, you know it is all over.

(yes,,those were the days... now I'm turning 32)

32. I have shoes older than that. I actually have a pair of wingtips that I was married in the first time around that are 34 years old. They're still in decent shape.

Wait until 36. Actually, I realized that it was all downhill at age 30

Geez. At 36 I was still playing hockey with 20 year olds. When I reached 50, I realized I couldn't keep up with the youngsters anymore and had to switch to the over 30 league. Still the fastest skater in that league though. But yeah, getting up in the morning I definitely feel my back, knee and elbow.

I would be very interested to know how you have come to know so much about said topics.

You could start off with reading the works of Liddell-Hart.
Albait he at times suffers from poor intelligence collection,,you'll get a good foundation for the general events of the war.
Then you scorch the closest libraries for anything related with WWII and start reading.

I would be very interested to know how you have come to know so much about said topics.

You could start off with reading

Regrettably an under utilized media.

First everyone was discussing grammer nazis, and now we're talking about real Nazis. Isn't this what history class or a history based site is for?

I'm the OP, and all this "real" history and politics part is very much what I wanted to see--that's the main reason for the subhead. Perhaps more importantly, classrooms (at least until grad school) are for *teaching you how to learn* more than anything else. In crude computer terms, school is for installing algorithms and life is for continuous collection of data that you analyze with those algorithms.


Plus you gotta worry about when the RIF Hooligans might hack your local libraries, find you never check anything out, and come to your house to literally bury you in books

Please, kyro, allow this thread to continue. Even with the nasty politics theme it's better than watching Entertainment Tonight or Survivors. I get a great satisfaction watching folks argue facts versus beliefs, as if by thinking it hard enough the red-hot poker won't burn.

It's a humble request. And I've asked for so little.

This game has some very realistic political situations which pretty much mirror our past, current, and future events in one shape or another. The way in which we "rule our empire" in this game is based on what our beliefs are, and those beliefs are/were formed by our political/religious/capitalistic influences and upbringing.

This game has surprised me on how I play. I always aim for Star Federation. I build a military that can fight and win as I have a slight edge. I always pick the evil choices because those are good for _my_ empire. I trade until the enemy military becomes a threat then I bring the embargo. I use diplomacy only to keep my enemy from punching me before I can destroy it. It sounds so... American.

I tried, as an experiment, to give Star Federation away because I believe in democratic values. The AI players happily took the diplomacy bonus but never upgraded their government types. That gave me another insight: It's asshat behavior like this which leads the US government to not care what kind of government another nation has. Non-Western states will take the knowledge of higher governments and leverage it into further oppression.

So... by the fourth game year, I will invariably have a vibrant economy, a utopian system of government and 90%+ morale but I'm demonic evil. A Great Satan, if you will.

This game is a great meditation on power politics.

A Great Satan, if you will.

That one is rich, definitely worth saving to memory.

If I remember correctly, when we were that age we were pretty much the same, at least I was.

I think we all were.

Commonly attributed to Mark Twain, but no verifiable records that he actually ever said it:

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.

Then you scorch the closest libraries for anything related with WWII and start reading.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have read many books on the subject, written by people who were obviously on both sides during that time. I am a firm believer in the saying that the winner writes the history of the event, therefore I cannot fully believe that what I am reading (or hearing/seeing) is the honest truth, unbiased and straightforward. That is why I say that we truly don't know for sure.
I've talked to my grandfather's old war buddies (when they were alive) and heard various tales from very different perspectives, but all told by US servicemen. I figured that they would know best since they were there. All it did was confuse me to hear such different tales, some of which were related in one way or another. Let's just say that our boys weren't the angels they were painted out to be in the news reels of old, or the documentaries of late. I know that in war, anything goes. No soldier is an angel no matter what side he/she is on. Regardless, it seems that a rosy shade has been cast upon us and the allies with respect to WWII and I don't think that it was as rosy as some want us to believe.

It makes horribly ironic sense that Evil S would have a good point about US hagiography of our "greatest generation."

Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad it took until now for me to need to start worrying about gun-toting bureaucrats asking for my papers. But my grandfather told very good stories about his long military career (he started out being lucky enough to catch a fleck of Pershing's spittle on his cheek when his high school ROTC squad was being reviewed--didn't wash his face for days, and he warn't queer AFAIK).

Which is a backwards way of saying that I favor stories as a way of understanding the world, but I acknowledge that they do invite long, unproductive arguments about stuff that might actually be facts. (I invite fellow recovering postmodernists to check the wiki for "fact" and note that it doesn't even touch on the etymology--IIRC, the roots are a word meaning "thing that someone made.")