Why does the AI like embassies so damn much?

You will find that the AI will build these on planets near boarders, basicly it over compensates the damn things now.

I noticed that in my old games, the AI builds a lot of embassies also. Any where from 4-6 on its home world and high HQ worlds. I think they had them in non border planets also.

A Class 20 planet I took had about 7 embassies and 6 entertainment centres. This was the Iconian Refuge home planet and when the war started the borders were far away from it in all directions.

Scorched earth tactics or not, this was a waste of money and/or production on the part of the AI.

Assume it's scorched earth, then the AI must have quickbuilt some 10 buildings over the course of about 20 turns - I'm not sure the AI had the money for that, and even if it did, why waste the money on quickbuilding instead of using them to build up its military? Factories etc can be decommissioned, there is no need to build something else over them.

I see no way to explain this phenomenon as a result of the AI acting sensibly (i.e. either the AI or I have a problem ).

PS: The game I refer to was played exclusively using the 1.1 release, AI set to bright.

The AI still has serious problems with planet development as far as I can tell (I was so hoping this had been fixed in 1.1)...I'm playing with all AIs set to "Genius" and the Arceans, who are the most powerful civ by virtue of starting in a corner next to most of the nice planets, have all their planets either a) mostly empty or stuffed with embassies (I have high espionage so I can examine all their planets).

It's really depressing to see the AI still making such noob errors.

Cheers

h

I've noticed that the AI builds weird planets on the very high difficulty levels. I think part of this is due to the fact that it get such significant economic bonuses that it buys almost everything. Their budget surpluses are made even higher by the fact that they don't really have much production to pay for. That's my theory anyway. It's not like games on crippling diffculty or higher are ever easy.

I noticed in 1.1 that the AI really builds a lot of embassies - too many if you ask me.

One other thing: I think that the cultural improvements don't have enough effect. Build a cultural exchange on a planet with 15b people and you'll barely notice the difference (a few IPs more). Maybe this should be enhanced, it might directly help the AI as well.

Yep same here, when i conquer an AI planet on suicidal level, i always find 3-6 embassies. The AI really loves them. I personally only build them on inflence planet tiles. I think the AI is overcompansating and trying to prevent there planets from flipping. Its a real weakness vs myself or any other player who virtually always goes for a military conquest victory. I simply upgrade every embassy to a building i really want, much cheaper then building, a building, from scratch. So the AI would be better off leaving the tiles blank, as he is just speeding up my all conquering juggernaut.

One benefit the AI's get however is they always have more influence voting power then me and thus usually get there way in United Planet votes. Not that, that really harms me much. Surely when the AI's r playing at tough and above they can do a constant influence check per turn and if it goes above 3x lets say then they can start building/upgrading to embassies? Until then concentrate on research/industry/money. That would make them harder to defeat.

But...one has to ask... "while the AI planets have tons of basically useless structures, where the hell do all those ships, research and military standing come from?"

I suspect we are being cheated. In one masochist level game (1.1)at the end the drengies had a -500cr per turn credit balance and were "healthy" expanding empire.

Ever tried running an empire on -500cr a turn?

But...one has to ask... "while the AI planets have tons of basically useless structures, where the hell do all those ships, research and military standing come from?" I suspect we are being cheated. In one masochist level game (1.1)at the end the drengies had a -500cr per turn credit balance and were "healthy" expanding empire.

Er... They *are* cheating at masochist no?

Yes they are 'cheating' - at anything above tough level. SD has said that many times. They don't hide it.

At higher levels the aI does not have to build a lot of factories or banks - it gets the bonuses. So it builds things it sees it needs - morale and entertainment stuff. Why build things you don't need? That is not dumb - it's excactly what a human would do.

It's is annoying to the conquerer - us, as we have to build factories ourselves. Not a bad strategy, really.

I generally only come across this on the AIs border worlds where it is trying to prevent an influence take over of the planet. I've flipped worlds that had four or five farms and just as many embassies. It is possible that whatever algo controls the AIs attempts to thwart influence take over may be off in some way but the strategy does make sense.

Keep in mind that the AI has to figure out what to do with a planet from scratch every new game. You on the other hand have dozens of previous games that have taught you how to build up an effective world for any particular purpose. So don't be so quick to rip the AI for building on planets in ways that don't make sense to you. You wouldn't need a whole lot of factories either if you had the money to buy everything outright.

As for the -500bc balance you just didn't see the +5000 he had before buying a dozen planetary upgrades and a few star ships. Trust me the AI buys things any time it has the cash even if it has to go a little negative. We humans are the only ones besides the minor races that seem to hord bcs for a rainy day. Also it is entirely possible to run your economy in such a way that you have a few turns of really high surplus and then a few turns of a negative net.

I've said it to others and will repeat it here: Just because the AI doesn't do what you do doesn't mean it's strategy is flawed .

Also Influence Victory is a way to win the game.

Ever tried running an empire on -500cr a turn?

Yea i have, its murder, give it a miss, took me ages to pull my empire through it. Finally had to drop output down from 100% when the unhappy face appeared and morale dropped on all my planets

@Oldstatesman

"At higher levels the aI does not have to build a lot of factories or banks - it gets the bonuses. So it builds things it sees it needs - morale and entertainment stuff. Why build things you don't need? That is not dumb - it's excactly what a human would do."

(Apologies...quoting in the green box doesn't seem to work on my machine)

Why build things you don't need? The AI doesn't NEED extra labs, production or cash? That's ridiculous! What would happen if the AI on higher levels actually built lots of factories, labs and banks? It would be a heck of a lot more difficult to beat...that's for sure. Are we not playing at higher levels in order to be challenged?

Are you saying that the AI is 'thinking' "Gosh...I could build a bunch of factories/banks/labs, gain an insurmountable lead in production and research and crush everyone, but that's not really necessary right now, so I'll build some embassies and hope for the best"?

Cheers

h

edit: Obviously in the case where an opponent is going for cultural domination, the AI should prioritize things like embassies over factories etc. But factories should still be very high priority as they allow you to build things like embassies etc.

edit: Obviously in the case where an opponent is going for cultural domination, the AI should prioritize things like embassies over factories etc. But factories should still be very high priority as they allow you to build things like embassies etc.

on the other hand if the game were to hand you 10,000 BCs per turn along with another ohh 5000 PP for research and ships. free with not having to build any improvments at all, then what would you do with the cash and free research and building points?

if all your planets could turn out one ship per turn each, and your research gave you a new tech every turn with no labs or factorys built on any planet, then what would be the point to developing them further? obviously at this point you would buy embassys and moral boosters would you not?

when i develope my own worlds playing on normal or below i find that i run out of need for ships and research after a while and can have some huge BC ballances to boot. i generaly buy all the super projects, and buy any improvments on planets i take over. and building yet another super shipyard planet or another super research planet isnt real high on my priority list

the AI is just starting from that point right from the word GO is all. just think of them as having 10 core planets allready developed like you would, hidden someplace that they get their income and PP from. they are just using the planets you can see as you would those planets you conquer after you have built your core empire. they dont NEED any more production or research, what they DO need is to not loose planets to a cultural flip and at the same time they can also persue a cultural victory by fliping your planets.

space is huge after all, perhaps the planets you see the AI on are mearly those few planets in this galaxy you have access too, perhaps they own 25 more galaxys worth of planets that your scaners cant reach, maybe they are just the tippity top of a very huge ice burg, and you are a flea on a dogs ass compaired to them and they know it.

maybe they are just toying with you, showing their contempt by only building embassys and could actualy crush your "empire' in less time than it would take you to say 'arm the lasers 2s number 1'

"Build more embassies, these imbeciles still haven't figured out that we're really NICE guys"

Actually with all the bonuses the AI has at high levels, it should build lots of factories/research centers since it should be racking in lots of money. I find having too strong an economy annoying and try to increase my production capacity to spend the money efficently. (other than using dough to massively update every ship i have )

Embassies at least are cheap, sometimes I fill out a larger planet with them, and then slowly replace them with stock exchanges. What bugs me is when i see one on a production or research tile...

@Knute112

"on the other hand if the game were to hand you 10,000 BCs per turn along with another ohh 5000 PP for research and ships. free with not having to build any improvments at all, then what would you do with the cash and free research and building points?

if all your planets could turn out one ship per turn each, and your research gave you a new tech every turn with no labs or factorys built on any planet, then what would be the point to developing them further? obviously at this point you would buy embassys and moral boosters would you not? "

Well, you're using an absurd example...I have never seen the AI in a state where they had SO much production and SO much research that to build further improvements was pointless (in fact I've never seen them even come close). Maybe you have?

What i'm saying is that the AI seems to have screwy building priorities...and I have yet to hear anyone present a convincing argument why spamming embassies and/or leaving tiles undeveloped is a valid strategy. They seem to do a reasonable job on their home colony and perhaps a few of their core worlds (which makes it all the more baffling as you know they can do it, but they seem to drop the ball at some point).

Cheers

h

The AI does treat its home world a little different then the rest of its empire. Also the example Knute gave is not absurd. It is what happens once you go beyond Intelligent and the AI starts to get bonuses. Brad has said on several occassions that the economy boost is not the only one. I seem to remember him saying something about abilities getting multiplied by like 200. What do you think happens to the numbers if you multiply your research ability by a factor of 200? All of a sudden one basic lab produces 1200 rp a turn. Sounds to me like you'd only ever need one.

No valid arguements? I've read 4 already but all say basically the same thing: There is no need to build more factories/labs once you reach a certain point. If you plan on buying everything you don't need factories. If you are getting new techs at a reasonable pace then you don't need more labs. Why would the AI ever want to build perfect worlds for you to conquer anyway?

A lot of expert players set military or social production to zero. Heck even the last write up that Frogboy did for game testing he set his spending to 100% research and bought everything. So why is it so hard for you to believe that the AI will do this? Especially at the higher difficulties where all that really are important is more people and more influence. So if more people and more influence are all you need then obviously all you would build would be farm and embassies mixed in with maybe a morale building or two.

And if you don't understand that then I sorry you just aren't going to get it.

Also Influence Victory is a way to win the game.

I've yet to see the computer AI try this strategy though. And if you want to do this strategy it's probably better to focus on influence increasing techs, resturant of eternity etc etc and selectively build cultural improvements.

I don't see that many cases of AI going crazy with embassies at tough level, most cases I have seen involve it trying to resist my overwhelming influence but failing miserably, but it does seem to like them a bit more than I think is necessary.

As for the -500bc balance you just didn't see the +5000 he had before buying a dozen planetary upgrades and a few star ships. Trust me the AI buys things any time it has the cash even if it has to go a little negative. We humans are the only ones besides the minor races that seem to hord bcs for a rainy day. Also it is entirely possible to run your economy in such a way that you have a few turns of really high surplus and then a few turns of a negative net.

Actually I do that a lot. Particularly when I'm impatient to finish up a great galactic achievement, or worse I suspect the AI is close to finishing.....

I've said it to others and will repeat it here: Just because the AI doesn't do what you do doesn't mean it's strategy is flawed

No the strategy is flawed only when it gets thrashed.

@cyberj14 / knute / etc - amazingly I think I now agree with your general sentiments:

I'm saying is that at the Gifted level of difficulty, where the AI gets reasonable, but not absurd bonuses, the AI ceases to develop it's planets properly after a certain point making it relatively easy for a competent player to outproduce/economy/research (or at least match) the AI.

Basically what seems to happen is that the AI has does exactly what you're talking about...it's thinks "gosh, this is good enough for now. I'm going to just focus on research and military and leave my colonies undeveloped". So I guess I understand where you're coming from...but I still think it could be improved.

I think the AI is programmed to switch to cranking military & research once it's economy has hits a certain level relative to the other AIs...I'm going to check in my current game what happens when I start pulling out ahead in the economy/production race. Will the Arceans crank their social spending and start developing all their planets? We'll see.

Cheers

h

only thing i can figure is so its harder to take them due to influence

Uh sorry people. But what your telling about the AI bonuses is just not true.

The AI does not get unlimited or free money. The AI does not get free research and production points. The AIs stuff does not get everything multiplied by 200 so they would have 1200pp factories. Thats just bullocks. (Sorry for my language).


What the AI gets on higher difficulties are certain boni. Think of them as the same as the ability boni you can pick at the beginning of the game. The 200% economic bonus for example doesn't mean that they have 200times your money, thats just +200% or three times your amount. Those stellar numbers you're talking about would make the AI able to research the whole technology tree in about 20 turns...

Reason people. Reason! (Think of Homer Simpson yelling that. )

No seriously. The boni the AI gets aren't that high as you think.

I'll explain this with a game example.

Drengins:

44pp x (20% + 300%) x 0.3 = 42.24 (41)
44pp x (40% + 300%) x 0.27 = 40.392 (41)
32rp x (41% + 300%) x 0.43 = 46.9216 (47)

First colum is how many social, military and research production was the planet able to produce. Second colum, inside the () is their normal bonus plus the 200% bonus because of suicidal difficulty (it's 300% because I'm multiplying). The third colum is how his spending sliders are set and the second last colum is how much is the resulting social, military and research production which is the same the game screen shows (which is the last colum inside the brackets).

I had to guess the spending sliders of course but as you can see they add to 1 (=0.43+0.27+0.3).

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So this can't be the reason, as we can see now clearly.


Imho the overuse of embassies is because the AI wants to fight against Influence which is threatening him. But since those embassies are so weak (25% is nothing) they have to build too much of them to be any use. Personally I would like to see them just to build some influence bases. Much better and cost effective.

I would like to see the AI start using propaganda centers instead of embassies to prevent planet flipping, assuming that the Embassy spam is intended to prevent flipping. One would think that the structure dedicated to preventing a planet from flipping would be more useful for that purpose then embassies. Then again, I dont know how loyalty plugs into the formula for a planet rebelling. I know that you need 4x influence to get it to flip, but I dont know what role Loyalty plays in that equation.

END COMMUNICATION

But...one has to ask... "while the AI planets have tons of basically useless structures, where the hell do all those ships, research and military standing come from?" I suspect we are being cheated. In one masochist level game (1.1)at the end the drengies had a -500cr per turn credit balance and were "healthy" expanding empire. Ever tried running an empire on -500cr a turn?

I've run mine on -1799/turn before. Essentially, you compensate via large amounts of trade. That's not counted in your tax revenue figure.