1.1 Beta 4b Thalian Incursion

They are essentially forcing me to declare war over two influence starbases.

Or to build your own Influence (via starbases or planetary improvements) to counter theirs...

Its things like these which are the main AI problems in the game. Random actions for no reason that will be seen as hostile to a human player. Obviously the computer doesnt see it that way and that needs to change. Even if an AI code would be to complex to add in that would allow the computer to realize it is an offensive action and simple "get your bases away from me" diplomacy option would be nice.

It's not random. They will build influence starbases around you if your influence rating is much higher than theirs. Sometimes they will do it anyway to raise their own and influence your worlds, possibly hoping for some defections.

Build a few of your own next to their homeworld. If your military is that strong they won't do anything but put up with it. And it will raise your own influence rating as well as lower theirs.

2) the influence starbase is too far away from their own territory to be of any use (several sectors)

Influence star bases generate their own influence. They don't need to be near teir territory to work.

But I agree with you. It would be nice to have a diplomatic option to force other races to remove their starbases without the need of declaring war every time.

(Of course you can also build your own influence bases to counter theirs, but often I've already used the 4 starbases per sector limit.

Is there a link to some info about how exactly Inf. Starbases work? I always assumed they "fed" off of local influence sources like planets, but I guess I was wrong. Do they then add their effect to whatever is already there?

=$= Big J Money =$=

If there are no modules on the ISB (Influence Starbases), they are using them as range extenders. With no further information, I can only say that they built those ISB first to extend their range so that they can build their trade route. Once that happened, they went back and laid down ESB (Economic Starbases) on those routes to make money. This would certainly explain the behavior that you are seeing.

There's no point in declaring war with them unless their influence starts to overwhelm yours, unless you just like to keep your space nice and clean of alien influence.

What I do when the someone places influence starbases in my area that are causing me grief but I am militarily much stronger than them, is I simply destroy the starbases, and then immediately attempt to make peace and maybe give them some money to them to sweeten them up. In many cases this works, though sometimes it does cause grudges that I have to deal with later! lol.

Though to be fair if I diplomatically (if I had the option that is, would be nice to have) told them to push off I suspect they would hold a grudge against me anyway if they agreed. However interestingly enough they probably would only agree to that I suspect if I was miltarily stronger than them...or an ally!

EZ

AR

PS The post above may explain why you are seeing this behaviour, one of the problems of observing a AI from the outside, so to speak, is that it may have a valid reason for doing that, though it seems a little odd to us. You really need to evaluate what is thinking ? Is it simply range extending ? If so I much prefer an AI use an ISB to an MSB; far less aggressive. Is it looking to influence you over ? Then I would expect it to add more mdules over time.

the influence starbase is too far away from their own territory to be of any use (several sectors)

If there is no chance of your planets flipping, then just ignore them. If they later become a threat, either destroy them or deploy some influence starbases of your own.

You don't HAVE to get rid of them just because they are there.

I think it makes sense that different leaders have different views on what is considered an aggression and what is not
considering their own interest first

the AI may hope that you won't be bothered enough to declare war on them

the AI may be 'probing' what is your threshold for declaring war
of course it's risky considering that you are more powerful than him
at which difficulty level did you play ?

Influence starbases that are not upgraded do not increase the influence of that race. They are there to increase the range of that race. If they add more modules to the starbase, then you can treat it like an act of aggression.

If there is no chance of your planets flipping, then just ignore them. If they later become a threat, either destroy them or deploy some influence starbases of your own. You don't HAVE to get rid of them just because they are there.

I'll use the above quote because it covers a couple points:

You are correct, there is no chance of my planets flipping and really no need to go through the hassle of putting up my own ISB. I may not HAVE to get rid of them, but there's a principle involved. If I start allowing the weakest civ to pull this crap, who knows what the Arceans are going to think. Actually, you can't see it very well, but the Arcean's have a world over in the right corner...sandwiched between two of mine. They also have an influence starbase, but it is out of range to affect any of the three planets in the corner. If they have shown me more respect than the Thalians, there's no way I can let the Thalians just put up ISB's at will.

There was an idea posed to put a couple of my own ISB's next to their worlds. For the trouble to do that I could easily just take their planets. Send a convoy of 4 of my 15 movement shock troop transports, with escorts and the problem will be solved.

I just found it odd that the AI's have little concept of what constitutes a threat. The Thalians actually put up their Economy bases first...extended their range. Fine. I figured I'd see a couple of their freighters. Instead I see a couple of ISB's go up. That looks like an invasion and if they won't let me peacefully purchase the bases from them, I will respond in a like manner.

One of the responses asked about the intelligent setting: Challenging. The map is also a gigantic map with common everything , tight clusters and abundant anomalies. I also set the research level to very slow.

this brings up a good AI point: Opponent Modelling

we know that the AI have routines to detect threats from the other players, but i wonder if they ever turn the table and say, "if you were me, and were doing this, and i were you, would i perceive this as a threat?"

this is, of course based on the (flawed) premise that the other player thinks the way you do... but it's better than no modellng at all!

so i wonder, i you built the same bases next to Thalians, what would they think?

The AI detects you constructing starbases close to it's territory and reacts to it so I doubt it would be very difficult to program the AI not to build bases close to you unless it's to provoke you to initiate war.

The AI detects you constructing starbases close to it's territory and reacts to it so I doubt it would be very difficult to program the AI not to build bases close to you unless it's to provoke you to initiate war.

Actually, I've all but ignored the Thalians the entire game. I had to create a constructor with a 7 range just to reach their homeworld. That had something to do with the "invasion" impression.

Still, the problem has since been rectified as the Thalians no longer exist and the Maelduin Empire now has 3 more planets.

I've seen this happen before, but it always seems to be a lead-up to an influence war. They put in some Influence bases, with no upgrades. So I ignore them. Then they start down the tech tree and those bases get upgraded, usually til they negate or overcome my own influence.

so i wonder, i you built the same bases next to Thalians, what would they think?

Actually, I've had this happen in a previous game. I think it was the Arceans who put up a couple of influence bases right next to a couple of my worlds. I "played the game" and responded with two of my own bases. Two turns later I received a message from them similar to:

"So, I'm reading the sector report for 11-17 and I see there's an Influence Starbase there? I guess it's ok as long as you don't build any more."

The next turn I received the exact same message from the Arcean's allies.

That's what I'm talking about when I'm unable to express my displeasure about the starbases. The AI may not treat the human player any different than another AI player, but the AI's do have more diplomatic tools available.

agreed... i'd like to be able to tell the AI players:

"we know what you are doing with all of those ships next to our border. i bet you learned that from watching human players, didn't you? it's lucky for you that i've got three beers in me, and need to go find more pretzels, or i might do something about it!"

"we know what you are doing with all of those ships next to our border. i bet you learned that from watching human players, didn't you? it's lucky for you that i've got three beers in me, and need to go find more pretzels, or i might do something about it!"

If they change it so we can comment on things like this I dare them not to use your quote verbatim! Very nice.