ok, here goes:
I'm speaking only for myself because I haven't a clue how anyone else thinks, nor do I want to. Snidely Whiplash is not a skinner, never has been nor will he ever be. Snidely ports msstyles to WB format using SKS and was using it long before most people knew anything about it. These ports were made because others asked for them to be ported, so Snidely did them. Snidely has tried to 'fine-tune' each port by adding WB features such as the logoff/shutdown dialogs, menu mouseovers, and such. There have been times when some images needed 'cleaned up'. There were times when some images were completely remade because the msstyle equivalent wouldn't work under the WB format. Some skins needed shellstyles to be added, but not many. There is no way the work done to include these features in a skin is comparable to the work done by others who create their skins from scratch and I've said that thousands of times to anyone who would listen.

Over a year ago, I fought very hard for the name 'Snidely Whiplash' to not be listed on the 'Top Authors' list because I felt him being listed there was disrespectful to skinners. So, if you think Snidely did ports for popularity, you're very wrong. Many ports done by Snidely have been posted on this site by others, also. Based on that fact, download counts never factored into it, either. I completely understand some folks' disenchantment with ports but before anyone starts thinking Snidely made ports to be popular ...... well, they don't know me. I get my joys from running youth sports programs, not from a download count of ports done by a cartoon character. Snidely does ports because he was asked to and because I know I have no artistic talent. You should see the half - completed (or less) skins I have sitting on my harddrives that will never see the light of day because they're so terrible. I have no talent and I admit it

People who make their skins from scratch have my utmost respect for their creativity and artistic talent. The skins they create may never be seen on my system because they just aren't my style, but they still garner my respect. You have to admit, there are some pretty bad Windowblinds skins out there, right? Heck, a lot of them were posted by Snidely.

BTW, Snidely and I (Pas) are not the same person. We are two completely different entities.

You know as I read this I really feel sorry for some people. Because I have to agree with Jafo,I believe he is 100% right. You got to remember what we are talking about is who knows what program better than the other. And to me that shouldnt make a difference. This is supposed to be one big community and instead of trying to put each other down, maybe we should be trying to help each other. you know whats the difference..if you port or if you make it..so what...everybody is better at something than other people...and if we helped each other maybe it would be beneficial to the community, instead of thinking as "I" maybe we should start thinking as 'we". Just my opinion, hope I didnt insult anybody.

'original hand-made' can be 'shitty' just as easily as 'point-and-click ports can.

Absolutely! I've made many myself I've ported and created original skins. I do prefer to create my own, but I don't skin every application there is. So if someone approaches me and asks if they can port something I've made for an application I didn't skin I think it benefits all those people that use that application. Who cares who made it? As long as it isn't ripped - then I care.

If someone converts a skin over to WindowBlinds from another format (with permission), doesn't that benefit WindowBlinds users?

i have no real opinion either way. porting is just one aspect of skinning that helps everyone. it helps spread what would be just a theme confined to the realm of mssytle to windowblinds and visa versa. it's beneficial visually also to have a skin ported to other programs to tie them all together. if they put the time and work into producing a comparable port, if it's of the quality of the orignial inspiration then i'm all for it. anything less is a waste. so...i guess i do have an opinion.

regardless though, what i really want to know is, where can i get that wallpaper Jafo?

completely agree Jafo, ports are great. Of course, so is a good porter (of course, I mean the alcohol variety)

besides perhaps wallpapers, skinning is much more than just the "image" there's a lot of coding, design, and functionality to deal with still. Porting might not fall under the "artist" catagory, but it still counts as skinning to me. Just as much as I'd say the Director might have the vision, but the gaffer is still just as much a "movie maker" as he is. Porting might have little to no "artistic talent or involvement", but there's more to "skinning" than just a pretty picture.

*overuses this phrase*

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION!!

anywho I don't consider myself a skinner either, I make wallpapers and dock icons atm, and neither qualify as skinning imo, just customization.

Okay I was going to go into this whole dialog about how what SKS does is import, not port and continue to split hairs about porting to try to differentiate the manual porting done in other apps from SKS's import feature. I've decided against that. Desktop customization, no matter the path taken to get there, is why we are here.

Instead I'm offering assistance, at least with WB skins. Anyone young or old, fresh or aromatic, porting a MSStyle or creating a WB skin from scratch, can and will get help if they visit The Workshop at Skinartistry, whether they need a SKS class, step-by-step help or just a bug check. Or you can contact one of the Admins there directly if you want to be more discreet about the help you seek.

Thanks to Butch for reminding me about why I wanted to be a part of the skinning community in the first place.

Oh....I was told to add ....

That 'port' of treetog's WB Antares to Litestep Shell theme included 1629 lines of original configuration code in 11 resource files [eg theme.rc], none of which existed in the source [WB]....

ok, one question...who is getting disadvantaged cause of porting ??

like butch said...this should be a community and there is no place for ego imo.
it's all about availability of skins.....if a WB artist has made a beautifull
theme, but only that and no widgets or wall or whatever, somebody will surely
make it themself either for personal use or to share. This will only increase
the popularity of the WB skin. Also permission is needed, so if you don't want
ports don't give it. If you do give your permission, make sure the port is done properly...this will all be benefitial to the COMMUNITY....

"this should be a community and there is no place for ego imo"

That should be true, and it would be better for the skinning scene if it was, but it's like saying 'This is a big world and we shouldn't have wars'. It's a nice thought, but sadly it won't ever happen. As long as people can put stuff in the public domain, and receive those precious comments in return, ego will always come into it.

I was speaking with someone yesterday on this subject, and I hope he won't mind me stealing his point of view, which I agreed with. Porting from something like Winamp and taking it to WB, or going from WB to Litestep, like in jafo's example, is a great way to port. But converting one format into a very similar format, like one desktop enhancer to another, or Msstyles to WB is really pushing it.
And porting removes the incentive to improve your skills. How many porters out there have actually progressed on to making their own original skins? And how many still stick to porting?

I don't see porting as any kind of 'entry level' skinning or a foot in the door. I see making your own graphics and doing something new as being a better way in.

Hipster, you're porting someone's thoughts there. Blasphemy!

By the way, "ego" is how it all started: "Look, I hacked WinAmp. Now give me some praise".

I for one don't care to progress on from porting to making my own original skin for two reasons:

1. Me is girl (I leave the making skins up to the men and then I rip them apart and make my own dresses)
2. No time, it clearly takes skill to make an original skin something that "some of us" don't have therefore we port

I only port window skins into pocket pc skins but that takes enough time to even do a quick port! you guys must really sweat behind your machines...

you guys must really sweat behind your machines...

That's a different problem

Porting, modifying, whatever - if done with permission - is still skinning in my book. There is a lot of time & effort that is consumed in doing a port or updating an older skin with new WB features. There are gifted skinners who can use nothing more than MSPaint & Notepad to do original work that is spectacular - they have a talent & skill with graphic programs coupled with a great imagination. They are the great skinners. There are many of us with less skill & experience who enjoy creating skins - we may not be great skinners, but we are skinners nonetheless.

I see no point in minimizing or denigrating the work of someone who shares his/her product freely, whether original (hard to define, that), ported or updated. Sorry to hear this has even become an issue, actually.

Cheers,
Daiwa

P.S. Jafo - hate to take advantage of this to prod you, but I'm waiting on an email reply from you, too.

So I see nothing changes in the world of skinning - if you port a msstlye to a windowblind it is still looked upon as stupid. Although in many of my ports there were parts I had to fill in and make myself so it wasn't a "one click" conversion.

I think the attitude towars msstyle porters is the one that needs to change.

This reminds me of "Made by Native Americans". Where is the line and who is going to draw it. No one doubts that an anasazi pot that is dug up in New Mexico is native, but is the plastic trinket that is mass produced by a factory who has an owner that is 1/8 cherokee also native? There are an infinite # of points in between that have to do with quality of workmanship, method of workmanship, intention of the craftsman, bloodline, last name, .....

I guess if you like the piece, it doesn't matter. And if people want to admire the trinket, that's ok too. But it sure does get under the skin of a Chickasaw that kills his own deer to make his own bone beads to assemble his hand crafted mandella,
...when he sees a piece of junk in a novelty store that says "made by Native Americans".

Like I said, there are an infinite amount of points in between.

I prefer a Stout to a Port, but a Port will do in a pinch ... Oh! That's a brew issue.

If I may, I would pose the question: "If one had no idea how to skin or create graphics, would one care whether the skin available were a port or an original?".

I think the answer is - "no".

I will admit that I do have a bit of an ego, so I would love to be able to create a complete skin from scratch (with a little help from SKS and my friends here at WC). This is indeed the path I shall endeavor to travel.

I have absolutely no issue with people who port or the fact that a skin is ported. If the skin works for me, then it works, and if it is a port, I recognize the original artists work as something I like and I am grateful to the person who took the time to port it.

Wow, look at all those "I's" in my comment, I must have an ego.

eggo. I'm hungry now.

Why is that everytime somebody tries to contribute to the community ,somebody else is at their throats or complaining about it? Isnt porting part of the learning process? Like butch while he may be porting , he is also learning about skinning and eventually he will learn enough to make his own WB skins.Some have talent and some dont so they contribute to the community by porting. I couldnt care less if it was ported or not long as its a nice, useable skin and I like it.

"I couldn't care less" or "I don't care at all" seems to be a re-occuring statement in this thread. Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.

I couldn't care less

I'm getting that way to. Perhaps it's time to retire from skinning and let the porters take over. That seems to be the way the 'skinning' community is going. There are a few notable skinners been lost in the last few months. Maybe our time is over

Your time has just begun, when the community is emmulating you and your work.

I agree with Developer Sleeping Dragon Your time has just begun, if it was not for you where would we all be

Well it seems most people get to that decision "they dont care or couldnt care less" when all there is is bickering and argueing about a certain subject . We all belong to a skinning community, a community where we all should help and encourage others! Why cant we all just get along?