If a rip is a rip then MacOS clones = rip

Hallelujah, finally someone has seen the light. I've been yelling his for years now.

One reason I can think of is that "make you Windows machine look like MacOS" is far easier to communicate than "Make your Windows machine look like anything you want".

So isn't every Mac clone considered a rip?Even if its "very similar"?

That theory would apply to just about every skin ever made. We are all 'ripping' someone in some form or another. Whoever created the first Icon, was ripped billions of times since. Read Frogboy's article about Intellectual Property. https://www.joeuser.com/Articles/TheSlipperySlopeofIntelle.html

I'd say that they're accepted because the original source of the work is known, as opposed to ripping off some unkown artists work.

If you delv into the history and legalize of it, MAC Clones are only allowed by Apple starting back around 1995 or so. They gave permission for clones to be built.

There is a difference even if many wish to attempt to ignore it...

of course it´s theft and it´s probably the lamest thing you can do in skinning.
Mark: i don´t think that the company is known makes it ok. Pixtudio is known in the skinning world as well, and you and Mike have the skills to become at least that known.
it´s plain hypocrisy. of course Craeonics is completely right about the communication thing (remember that WB 2.x came with 3 or 4 OS rips/ports as default skins).
doesn´t matter anyways.

Well I................................................

I'd say that they're accepted because the original source of the work is known, as opposed to ripping off some unkown artists work.

So according to your logic, I can make skins to the likeness of Treetog's and its ok?

Oh wait, its not though, because Treetog is a contributing member of this site and also sells skins. That makes it not ok.
But Apple dosen't contribute here, so its ok? Or because they're a billion dollar corporation its ok?

That theory would apply to just about every skin ever made. We are all 'ripping' someone in some form or another. Whoever created the first Icon, was ripped billions of times since.

Alright, if thats the case then yet again, I can freely rip off Alexandrie, or DaWebMassa, or anyone elses work with no repercussions?

C'mon, we can do better than this or "read soandso's article".
I've read it, it dosen't mean much to this argument. I'm happy you can site other works, but it isn't going to hold up here, I said to discuss, I want YOUR opinion, not someone else's. If Brad would like to pop in here, then he's free to and site his own work.

If you're going to say "I agree with so and so" in this thread and thats going to be your only contribution, don't bother, go away.

Doomgaze, you must live a boring life worrying so much about technicalities. Well, TECHNICALLY I can rip so and so and blah blah blah. Get a grip bro. The difference is we don't PERSONALLY know who designed the Mac Interface. We DO KNOW who made Copperdeck, we DO KMOW who made MetalX. Those people are contributing members of this community, and to copy their work is not fair to them. The people at Apple get paid to design interfaces, while the rest of us do it for free. They make skins because it's what they like to do, Apple forces people to make their GUI. Obviously they pay the people they force, but a job is a job. So you can continue your little flame attacks about how it's ok to rip apple but not Pixtudio, but just think before you type. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp, I know you know the difference, you seem like you have some form of intelligence...whether you use it for good or bad is up to you.

BTW, here is an excerpt from Frogboy's article. I suggest you print it out and frame it so you can stop asking silly questions like this.

The general consensus I have seen (every skin site has OS skins as far as I know) is that OS skins are kind of like fan art, there is no confusion on who the ultimate source of the OS skin is. Whereas ripping of an individual’s skin is different because the average person would not realize that the skin they are downloading was actually created by someone else than the person who is taking credit.

Here's the deal - OS interface designs get "ported" to other OS's because people enjoy it. The Mac guys do skins for Macs and Apple treats them the same way it treats Windows users. Worse actually. Apple made it clear you could do anything you want with Platinum or any previous interface. That was a few years ago. Today they might even feel that way about OSX or most of it.

Fact is, people don't care what Apple thinks. For many (the majority arguably) the coolest thing you can do to a Windows computer is make it look like a Mac. I've never felt this way but it is a huge interest in the skinning world. Whenever Apple asks us to take down certain pieces, we do. Whenever they don't ask it takes people starting threads like this to draw attention to it.

OS's get ported. It's a fact of life and probably not worth worrying about, it will always happen. If OS skins aren't your thing (as in my case) just ignore them. You're in the minority.

actually I should've said "We're in the minority".

The edit box went away while I ate dinner...

Another thing, the artist who "ports" an OS needs to do his own artwork, like alexandrie's KDE and Corona skins, she drew everything herself, she didn't copy screenshots of someone else's work. Her work is protected the same way, the OS design is fair game but her artwork is not, you can't take her drawings and use them without her permission. Draw your own.

First off...

Doomgaze, you must live a boring life worrying so much about technicalities.

Maybe you should read the dayjob thread?
I bet my life is far cooler than yours.

The difference is we don't PERSONALLY know who designed the Mac Interface. We DO KNOW who made Copperdeck, we DO KMOW who made MetalX. Those people are contributing members of this community, and to copy their work is not fair to them.

Do you PERSONALLY know treetog? Do you have tea with him? If your answer is no, then you don't know him personally.

The people at Apple get paid to design interfaces, while the rest of us do it for free. They make skins because it's what they like to do, Apple forces people to make their GUI. Obviously they pay the people they force, but a job is a job.

Funny, some people here skin for money, so technically the first part of that is totally invalid. But I sincerely doubt the people who work on the Mac GUI are "forced" to do it, there are labor laws here yanno, and I'm sure they enjoy their job immensely from what I've heard they get paid.

So you can continue your little flame attacks about how it's ok to rip apple but not Pixtudio, but just think before you type.

And actually, this wasn't a flame, maybe you should reread the beginning of the thread again and possibly make a semi-intelligent response/retort to what I posted.

Now onto David's response (which was well thought out and very well done, bravo for avoiding making it out like i was flaming/or you flaming)

OS's get ported. It's a fact of life and probably not worth worrying about, it will always happen.

Yep they will, there will always be horrible rips of various window manager skins which are a far cry from how nice they are on the other OS's.

Another thing, the artist who "ports" an OS needs to do his own artwork, like alexandrie's KDE and Corona skins, she drew everything herself, she didn't copy screenshots of someone else's work. Her work is protected the same way, the OS design is fair game but her artwork is not, you can't take her drawings and use them without her permission.

See, the issue here though is, anytime any skin looks even REMOTELY like one of the popular artist's work, the world blows up and all hell breaks loose. Need I mention the incident with one of the better known up and coming artists here and treetog? I'd rather avoid that. It was a likeness, yet many people jumped on him like he was ripping treetog off. I'm sure you remember this incident.

And I'm sure there are atleast a couple people who aren't making their own mac graphics... How many people actually drew the Mac icon (Which is copyrighted by the way, technically you can't use it for your own art.) which can be found on a multitude of copycat Mac skins?

And where's the line on likeness to say OSX? When does a "likeness" become a rip?

Oh yes, and let me quote myself for YOU Hus, since you can't seem to read.

C'mon, we can do better than this or "read soandso's article".I've read it, it dosen't mean much to this argument. I'm happy you can site other works, but it isn't going to hold up here, I said to discuss, I want YOUR opinion, not someone else's. If Brad would like to pop in here, then he's free to and site his own work.

Y O U R O P I N I O N
Note the fact that others in this thread have been able to conjure up free thought on their own.
Yet you end up back at Brad's article.
Not very intelligent, now try again before I stop replying to you in a decent and humane manner.
[Message Edited]

::sigh::

Maybe you should read the dayjob thread?I bet my life is far cooler than yours.

Oh wow! You are just too cool! I wish I was as cool as you!

The difference is we don't PERSONALLY know who designed the Mac Interface. We DO KNOW who made Copperdeck, we DO KMOW who made MetalX. Those people are contributing members of this community, and to copy their work is not fair to them.

By personally, I didn't mean face-to-face. I mean, can you really be that thick? This is an ONLINE community. Duh!

The people at Apple get paid to design interfaces, while the rest of us do it for free. They make skins because it's what they like to do, Apple forces people to make their GUI. Obviously they pay the people they force, but a job is a job.

Again, what I meant by 'force' is that it's their JOB. They HAVE to do it, they do not have a choice, otherwise they get fired. Skinners have a choice, they choose to make a skin.

C'mon, we can do better than this or "read soandso's article".I've read it, it dosen't mean much to this argument. I'm happy you can site other works, but it isn't going to hold up here, I said to discuss, I want YOUR opinion, not someone else's. If Brad would like to pop in here, then he's free to and site his own work.If you're going to say "I agree with so and so" in this thread and thats going to be your only contribution, don't bother, go away.

I consider that a flame. So sheddup.

Oh wow! You are just too cool! I wish I was as cool as you!

Ok, so what do you do in life?
I get to save people. I feel good about myself when I come home from my winter job. That I did something for someone who will appreciate my knowledge far more than I'll ever really understand. (Karma rocks... esp. when you realize that that person could be you.)

I also get to catch on rod and reel one of the most aggressive gamefish on earth that can be the size of a VW Bug. That is fun.

You probably sit in a cubicle and lead out a mundane life of denying the fact that you'll be a cubicle slave the rest of the your life.

By personally, I didn't mean face-to-face. I mean, can you really be that thick? This is an ONLINE community. Duh!

Honestly, if you want to discuss the semantics of using "personally" would it really matter if someone in the community died to you?
You never KNEW them, never will, and they'll probably not make much of an impact on your life anyhow.

Again, what I meant by 'force' is that it's their JOB. They HAVE to do it, they do not have a choice, otherwise they get fired. Skinners have a choice, they choose to make a skin.

They HAVE to do it because they CHOOSE to do it, duh, you must be thick yourself.

I consider that a flame. So sheddup.

That's "shut up" and I have yet to flame you in my typical manner.

You probably sit in a cubicle and lead out a mundane life of denying the fact that you'll be a cubicle slave the rest of the your life.

If you must know, I work for the 'Adult Entertainment Industry'. I run and manage a warehouse that supplies most of the stores dealing that sort of stuff east of the Mississippi. No cubicle job here bro...did you read that day job thread or not?

You save lives...I make them more fun. It's an even trade.


---

This is getting way off-topic. I'm gonna stop posting now...
[Message Edited]

See, the issue here though is, anytime any skin looks even REMOTELY like one of the popular artist's work, the world blows up and all hell breaks loose. Need I mention the incident with one of the better known up and coming artists here and treetog? I'd rather avoid that. It was a likeness, yet many people jumped on him like he was ripping treetog off. I'm sure you remember this incident.

this quote tool makes for a banded look in threads like this... we need to get one that makes crop circle patterns instead of just rectangles...

To your point (yes I remember the incident) an OS is an operating system. We've already agreed that OS's will get copied (ported) by many people to bring their appearance to other OS's. An individual's design is different, as evidenced by the Kaleidescope artists, they make skins for the Mac OS but they also are individual designers making interface designs that they individually own. They get very pissed when someone makes a "similar" design. But they "port" OS designs without a second thought.

Commercial art has similar distinctions. A "style" gets copied quite often, it could be color or shapes used in a similar way to a popular artist's work, but a "design" would bring lawsuits and infamy if it were copied.

OK quite honestly I think since Danwin is open source is free for all then Apple doesn't give a f**k about people making skins about the OS X interface. Actually if I was Apple I would think it would be good for buisness. IT IS NOT A RIP> In fact, Adam had to move all his works to DA becuase all of our Apple themes do not allow the Apple logo.

Speaking of a rip doomgaze, if you want to complain about one, check out Adma's LCARS theme. Wonder what Star Trek and/or Paramount thinks about it?

Get a life already.... Kona has spoken!

So OS's get knocked off all the time, is it fair? certainly not, and you're welcome to feel sorry for them all you want. But unless you're on the Apple legal team, a crusade is a waste of time...

So OS's get knocked off all the time, is it fair? certainly not, and you're welcome to feel sorry for them all you want. But unless you're on the Apple legal team, a crusade is a waste of time...

Well said brother. Nuff already doomgaze! You jealous of my Mac or somethin?

Scenario A)

Party A spends a few hours cutting and pasting from screenshots of the newest OS, or the upcoming Windows version. Party B spends weeks creating a theme from scratch, designing it from the ground up. Parties A & B end up with professional, slick work, and upload it. Now, who generally fares better, the guy who originates, or the guy that duplicates? And what if the Party B *isn't* good enough to make professional, slick graphics? His work sits there and pales in comparison to the stolen commercial art.

Scenario

party A spends a few hours cutting and pasting pics of hot babes he found on a pr0n site, and makes a collage from them. Party B buys a camera, learns to use it, hires models, and takes his own photos and makes a collage. Party A uploads to the average site in our 'community' and is eventually moderated for being a thief. Party B uploads, is accepted, and has the benefit of being judged among people who make their own art.

Odd contrast between the scenarios, huh?

I know the main opinions here. I have heard the "fan-art", "Fair-Use", "Yeah, but when the make those legal statements they don't *mean* it" and all the rest of the *wink wink* nonsense. I am beyond believing that anyone will change. I mean, how many people bought windows-skinning software so they could have the Aqua interface, would you say? How many people would invest in icon-swapping apps if they didn't have a big database of modded commercial icons to stock up on? Adhering to any of a number of EULAs and 'terms of use' would, no doubt, make for less bait.

What I do wish is that we would have enough respect for our own artists not to bury them in stolen graphics. "Intellectual Property" and "Fan Art" discussions are moot if you care about the amateur artists who create original work. In the end, is this site here for the artists, even those who aren't making commercial grade graphics, or the guy that is too lazy to go download a Matrix wallpaper from the appropriate site?

Dead horse. I have that creepy, gross feeling that I had a few months ago. Probably shouldn't have posted this.

kona: as has been said a ton of times, the Aqua desktop isn't related to the Darwin stuff: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/index.html

ah I did not mean it that way. sorry but I stick by my star trek statement.

Hiya Baker

What do we do when there's such a love for Mac skins? I would like to adhere to the strict "you drew it or it doesn't get in" policy, and in fact we all do try, but with the volume and popularity of these skins it's impossible to determine who drew it themselves and who took it from a screenshot (sometimes).

Since OS ports are here, and we do play them down as much as we can, is it fair to exclude the thousands of people who dig this from our "community"? Isn't that an elitist and prudish stance to take? What's wrong with just ignoring them?

When threads like this aren't happening, I don't think about the multitude of OS skins. When threads like this show up, OS skins become a focal point and get blamed for everything from hiding the good artist's work to a karmic debt of hypocrisy. Really now... it's just another group of people with different tastes and it's not fan-art or Briteny wallpapers, it's OS ports we're talking about and they've been a big part of skinning since the beginning.

Except for the fact that it is a dead horse, I agree totally with your sentiment. I'm just not willing to say my lack of interest in OS ports makes me more pure than someone who likes them or makes them. It's a personal preference, not a virtue. I have a lot of respect for several artists who make ports.

If I owned my own site, hosting other people's skins, ports, walls, etc....and held an absolute totalitarian attitude to the acceptance or non-acceptance of what was hosted....it would not just be Britney's walls that would get the cull....but anything and everything remotely considered to be 'borrowed' without consent.

Wincustomize.com is not 'my' site...it is 'our' site....belonging to its inherent community, which, I might add is not merely the vocal few on this board...who number perhaps in the hundreds, but all of the 680,000 plus people who have taken the effort to become members to interact with the site at whatever level that may be.

Even the 'pointy end of the stick' is a populous one and is not an autonomous entity.

Call it decision by committee or decision by majority, but if truth be known 'OS Ports' are popular, as are any recognizable GUI interfaces.

On a personal level, not 'official policy', I enjoy the concept of porting one entity into another dissimilar proggy....like the challenge of creating a WinAMP skin using 'elements' from another's wallpaper....something I've done on a number of occasions...[though my 'best' cannot be released as I still get no response from the wall artist].

Skinning is all about altering a GUI....and that makes alternate OS GUIs extremely popular targets with both makers and users.....and that's something we 'need' to accommodate - as a community.

If, and WHEN Apple, for example, requests any/all these be removed then that WILL be that....the 'party' will be over.

In the meantime we wait in tedium for the next OS or OS Ver for the next spate of 'anti-port frustration' that will resurface as it has every other time in skinning's history...

#7 by Doomgaze - 8/7/2003 7:52:54 PM So according to your logic, I can make skins to the likeness of Treetog's and its ok?

I'm still struggling to find the part in my post that says 'I think Mac rips are ok, and I accept them'.
Nope, 2 reads and still I can't find it.
Maybe you can point it out to me?

As well recognised as Treetog is, I don't think most of the computer using population would see one of his skins at first look at say 'That's a Treetog piece'.
Take an OSX screenshot, and show that instead, and the person will undoubtedly know what they're seeing.
[Message Edited]

#3 by Hippy - 8/7/2003 4:17:17 PM
I'd say that they're accepted because the original source of the work is known, as opposed to ripping off some unkown artists work.

Hey, every one knows Hippy right? Now, every one knows you, so the original source is know, now lets rip your Mean Machine theme

But for serious, if you don't use original graphics then it isn't ripping (in theory).

The first GUI was made by microsoft/bil gates, so actually we are all 'ripping' his idea, ow, and the most wb skins have a startbar, and then a 'double' menu, looks like xp to me

#24 by Skinner Styl skinner - 8/8/2003 4:00:43 AM The first GUI was made by microsoft/bil gates

Oh dear. You have no idea just how wrong you are!

But anyway, with regards to creating Mac lookalike skins, I agree wholeheartedly that they're rips. There's absolutely no artistic merit in taking a screenshot and cutting it up to make a skin. However, it seems that when it comes to rips of OS designs there's one rule for them and another for rips of skins. I'm not sure what that rule is exactly, or if it's in some big rulebook on a shelf somewhere, but I can say one thing for sure - you won't ever catch me making a lookalike skin.