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Overdog worship

Overdog worship

One of the trends I've noticed in "Generation Y" that's different from Generation X and especially the baby boomers is that members of Generation Y seem to automatically want to side with the overdog.

Nothing exemplifies this attitude more than the stark attitude differences about Microsoft. If you polled the typical 18 year old techie about Microsoft, you would find that they overwhelming believe Microsoft's technologies are great, innovative, and solid. Ask Generation X and a lot of skepticism shows up. And by the time you get to the baby boomers you have to weed out the profanity used to describe it.

For us at Stardock, this really bites hard because we make software that extends the OS. As a result, any time Microsoft adds something that works similarly to what we make, the overdog worshippers begin dissing our software. Often times the similarities are almost identical. Yet, if you add the Microsoft logo to our stuff, it magically becomes better, faster, smaller, etc.

It's a rather surreal experience seeing young techies equating software written by Microsoft as small, fast, efficient, and relatively bug free. I actually don't have a negative view of Microsoft's coding abilities. I think they write software a bit better than average when compared to other mega corporations. I do believe that their internal developer culture is inadvertently harmful to third party innovation. That's because developers at Microsoft are allowed to work on, in their free time, additional software projects and from what I've seen, these often end up being "inspired" by third party software rather than original creations. But there's a big difference between Freeware written by Joe freeware author and someone at Microsoft. Anything released by Microsoft gains the air of legitimacy that no third party can get.

And that brings us back to the overdog worshipping. In Windows XP, the OS supports being "skinned". The OS comes with Windows XP style blue, silver, and green. But if you're willing to hack out the digital signing protection, you can download and copy into your system directory additional themes. The msstyles format is pretty decent overall. But it's not very powerful. It was made to make the Windows XP style and as long as you're willing to basically stick with themes that are pretty basic, you can have some variety.

Our company, by contrast, makes WindowBlinds. A program that extends Windows XP to natively support skinning too. We use pretty much the same APIs so we're just as "native". The difference is that our skin format is much more advanced since our program only exists to skin and wasn't designed around a particular design.

Yet on some of the techie sites that are so frequented by Generation Ys, you would think our software was buggy crap. Often times the alleged faults with it are exactly the same faults that exist with the included msstyles (because we use the same APIs). And none of these faults are what a normal person would consider significant.

But that's where the underdog worship really takes off. All manner of faults are imagined to exist for our software and the only thing these faults have in common is that we're not from Microsoft.

Let me give you some examples to show you just how far some of the overdog worshippers will go:

Claim: There are no good skins for WindowBlinds, they're all fat and useless.

Msstyles supports only very basic skins. WindowBlinds is a superset format, it can do that plus pretty much anything else you can imagine.

Let me show you some screenshots to show you what we've been doing for years:

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-nov99.jpg (November 1999)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-apr00.jpg (April 2000)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-july01.jpg (July 2001)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-july00.jpg (July 2000)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-aug00.jpg (Aug 2000)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-nov02.jpg (Nov 2002)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-jan03.jpg (Jan 2003)

https://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb-mar03.jpg (Mar 2003)

WindowBlinds can do any visual style that msstyles can since it's a superset. And in fact, with going on 3000 skins for it, there are many many minimalistic skins available.

In short, this is a baseless claim. But you see, because msstyles is so limited in what it can do and because it's Microsoft, then these limitations are "good". You can bet that if the tables were reversed these same people would be claiming that our software was too limited.

Claim: WindowBlinds uses too much memory!

WindowBlinds uses around 2 megabytes less ram when a skin is applied than msstyles does. In short, this claim is simply made up. But we hear it all the time. It's so easy to tell that it's not true, XP has a task manager that shows how much memory is allocated.

Claim: WindowBlinds skins crash my apps!

WindowBlinds uses the same APIs as XP. It's no more likely to crash an app than msstyles is.

Msstyles, as a format, are like .BMP. They get the job done. WindowBlinds is a lot like .PNG files. PNG has advantages over .BMP such as alpha channel support, compression, etc. But if these two formats were remaed .MSIMG and .IMG or something, I bet you would have a lot of people claiming that .BMP is "Better".

The really sad thing is that these overdog worshippers don't realize that if they had their way, they'd likely be worse off. Needless to say, Microsoft doesn't support people hacking their system DLL so that they can patch in additional unsigned msstyle files. The next version of Windows, code-named Longhorn is already available via various "channels" in early beta. Guess what? .msstyles is no longer supported. Microsoft isn't in the skinning business. They make OSes and their top priority is producing a great OS. They have their hands full with compatibility on things that actually matter let alone worrying whether skins made by people who are hacking out their security features to work are going to be taken care of or not.

But imaging if the overdog worshippers got their way and we disappeared. We're the only realistic alternative. Do they really want to be at the mercy of Microsoft? What most people don't realize is that Microsoft's internal culture makes individual developers there very important. The only reason why Windows XP even has an msstyles "format" is because a couple of developers there decided to create a format rather than hard code it. Imagine if they leave? There's no business justification to continue supporting skinning. So if not in Longhorn, at some point, odds are they'd be out of luck. And bear in mind, it took years for WindowBlinds to get to where it is today.

This is just one story in a cosmic book of stories on how there's an increasing tendency for young techies to blindly worship whoever is dominant. An almost innate desire to be on the winning team seems to have gripped the young techie culture. I wonder how many of them have considered the long term implications of such over dog worship.
61,438 views 228 replies
Reply #76 Top
The one thing I can agree with Kona on is the atmosphere. It's gone way downhill IMO. But that's not to say I don't understand the frustrations of dealing with some of the posts that appear on this board. Maybe I'd feel less friendly if I came here everyday too.

As for Juni's lotr wall, it's only a screenshot because we all know he doesn't do those kinds of walls, and even this one is rather vague in that none of those cheezy copyrighted photos were used.

I know that if you've seen the ss, you know that. I just begged him to do it because I couldn't find any decent artistic wall based on lotr. All the idiots were posting photo art, and sadly my skills were too filter-happy.

But getting again back to the topic, the friend I pointed out was Gen X and she acts like Gen y, that's why she was an exception.
Reply #77 Top
Your the first person who has agredd with me in a long, long time. thank you. BTW if any are looking for a apoligy from me, either forget it or reread #75. I'm all out of excuses. I'm sick of kissing up just to stay here on this site. I have never been a brown noser till I came here. Some of my views I can not even express here or I know for sure I will be exiled.

I'm not mad at anyone or this site. I just wish people would grow up and quit treating me like a kid.

Reply #79 Top
Kona: You get ragged on because you state things that are completely untrue as if they are fact.

For example: Msstyles CAN NOT put the title bar buttons on the LEFT. It cannot have 1 pixel wide borders like the Mac. It cannot have a roll up button like the Mac. Yet you claim msstyles can make Windows look "exactly" like a Mac.

But as if that's not enough, you claim that WindowBlinds cannot do many things that it does. And you act surprised that you're getting ragged on?

Let me be clear, Kona: You are not being ragged on because of your "opinions" or "ideas". You are getting "ragged on" because you present falsehoods as facts. No one likes it when people who have no idea what they are talking about starting asserting their misconceptions as facts. This is particularly in a thread that was inspired by the annoying habit by msstyles boosters.

In other words, in a thread complaining about how msstyles advocates spout of nonsense about WindowBlinds to bolster their case, it should come as no surprise that someone doing EXACTLY that in this thread would get reamed a bit.

Plainsong: There does tend to be not a lot of tolerance for nonsense. I can be pretty cranky myself. Kona makes me cranky because he clearly is clueless on what he's talking about but seems to insist that what he is saying is somehow grounded in reality.

But if you think WC's not as nice as it could be, you should check out the other sites. Any forum with enough people is going to have its share of unpleasantness from time to time. The only way to have a universally nice message board is to find one that has very very few participants so that you get that intimate atmosphere.
Reply #80 Top
unpleasantness from time to time:

yes it will. but go back in all the treads a few months and all the ragging is ON ME. I know I bring upon myself.

As far as your other gripe about msstyles:
http://www.jonmega.com/~iceman/vs/
check that out. He also has a DX theme.
So as you see, I did back my word up this time.
Reply #81 Top
BTW NO ONE should be reaming anyone else if this is a "family site"
obviously we all can't get along.
Reply #82 Top
Usually, the messageboards that have no conflict on them are the ones that kick/ban people like Kona without warning. I mean, it isn't like you can force the admins to let you stay on. If you are there at all you are being tolerated.

**

ANYWAY... about my last question, wouldn't msstyles void the Microsoft service agreement by altering the dll? What are the *legalities* of software that reverse-engineers other software in a time when reverse engineering has been made illegal?
Reply #83 Top
What do you mean by "like Kona"? You think I should be banned?

As far as your question, I wouldn't know because I alter my files all the time. I don't know if it voids anything but I guess it does. But I bought so I feel I can mess it up if I want to.
Reply #84 Top
i meant i bought it so...
Reply #85 Top
"But I bought so I feel I can mess it up if I want to."

Makes a difference if it isn't legal to do so, of if later you need to deal with MS Customer Support.

Not my site, so my opinion on your presence isn't relavent.
Reply #86 Top
I have never called CS add I never will. I hate talking to others about problems I know I can solve myself. It belongs to me, so I'll fix it.
Reply #87 Top
kona0197, I am not "ragging" on you, I am simply pointing out that you make it sound like you are an advocate of something (like asking how many times you have to say that you hate Kazaa) but then you are hypocritical about it (as in the fact that you use kazaa). How can somebody trust the word of somebody who constantly does this?

This is a family site, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to "love" you. If you think that people are being "cruel" to you, go hang out on some of the other skin sites and see where your posts get you.

You don't have to like me. And, I don't have to like you. (As is true with everyone) But, you have to also realize that I am just pointing out things that you said on this messageboard. If the truth hurts about your own words, that's not my fault. Think about what you post a bit more before you post it.

Just like it was pointed out before- you matter of "fact" stated that WindowBlinds can't do what it can. You said that MSStyles can make Windows look exactly like a Mac, and it can't. These are things that you said. Sorry if you don't like me comparing what you said in different threads. I'm just pointing out what you said (and the inconsistencies of what you said).
Reply #88 Top
Kona: You have used a Macintosh correct? Have you used MacOS X?

Are you aware of what side the title bar buttons exist on MacOS X?

Look carefully at the screenshot you said as your "proof".

WindowBlinds can put the buttons on the same side as the Mac which would be the LEFT side.

It can also put the the roll-up button on which msstyles cannot.

Am I just wasting my time trying to communicate with you? Are you reading what I'm writing? Is this like Babya II or something?
Reply #89 Top
I think that would be a solid 'yes' on the wasting time thing...

**

ANYWAY... about my last question, wouldn't msstyles void the Microsoft service agreement by altering the dll? What are the *legalities* of software that reverse-engineers other software in a time when reverse engineering has been made illegal?
Reply #90 Top
BTW, check this out:

https://www.stardock.com/temp/winaquanew.jpg

Now that uses only ObjectBar and ObjectDock and WindowBlinds.
Reply #91 Top
Correction, also uses Treeview for that one window.
Reply #92 Top
yeah but its your boot screen... not if you start distibuting it...

I need to find the artical from Neowin. Someone started defending MS... but the question was why when the artical was not really attacking them.
Reply #93 Top
No, the *act* of reverse engineering was made illegal recently by a series of laws. That is why you are gonna be prevented soon from buying 3rd party printer cartriges and why people are being prosecuted for making X-Box modchips.

The printer thing goes like this. They don't want people selling cheap carts for them. SO, they attatch a chip that has an identifier on it. In order to make a 3rd party cartidge, you have to know how the chip works, and it is *illegal* to reverse engineer the chip to find out. You make a working 3rd party cartidge, you go to jail. Same with the modchip thing. It is basically illegal to alter your own x-box. Like the DMCA and DVD software.

So, I'm not sure where msstyles fits in. It would have to void the service agreement, though, wouldn't it?
Reply #94 Top
bakerstreet, using third party inks in some printers (like the one that we have at work that uses a wax technology) already voids the warranty. What you are saying just takes it one step farther.

I think that MS would just not support any graphic glitches or any behavior that would result from hacking the dll. I have my own opinions on that, but will refrain from ranting about it at this time.
Reply #95 Top
Well, it is more the precedent it sets... the fact that you don't 'own' what you own, you aren't even allowed to take it apart. The warranty is no big woop, having it illegal is kinda scary.

I'm just kind of surprised that MS hasn't had anything to say about software specifially built to hack window's system dlls. Intercepting the calls isn't really their concern, since nothing is altered. Msstyles seems a bit more than they traditionally embrace.

I'm a win2000 fogey, though, so i dunno much about it.
Reply #96 Top
OK

So its not ok to alter your own computer... even if your not selling it or distubuting it.

Definaitly don't get that one.

I get the x-box thing and all those sites about how to change this and that sharing information on how to crack it.

but if I do it on my own?

I don;'t know, seems like to me that is pushing it. It like the RIAA sueing DJ's for being a major part of the music industry and not paying royalties.


Counter productive. Wouldn't that make the early beginnings of skinning basically a hack?

Well, I get the public domain thing. (/me goes and checks his DA account and mark stuff for removal)

I guess fan art and websites and any revunue it could possibly make for a product is also bad. I get using the Hulk works would be wrong, but what if it is a site or work based on it? I guess based is the key word. A hand drawing is fine, maybe a green arm, not a San Lee (c) work of which he gets paid for and looses money because I freely distibute it.

hmmmmmm....
How do 3rd parties get a foot in the door? How does invention get improved if I am basically renting the software?

How does one get in to make a new product if code is very presious?

Lets all go to open source. Its cheaper... no wait, M$ will 'talk' to the government and it will just not happen.



I will problably never understand this subject, or the follow the leader thereory.
Reply #97 Top
baker...my guess is that hacking a system dll is just the escape clause that MS would need to absolve themselves from any obligations over Warranty, etc.

If you put Super fuel in an Unleaded car you are a putz, with a knackered donk [engine]. Ford or GM will just say 'well, you're a silly twit, aren't you!' Then they may offer to sell you another car..
Put a 454 into a Pinto and and the warranties go out the window to make it fit...

I doubt it would be the responsibility of MS to prove the dll hack was benign or not,...more likely any code mod is an 'out' for them....
Reply #98 Top
joe...the early beginnings of skinning WAS a 'hack'......the first skin for WinAMP...
Reply #99 Top
So Winamp started it all?
Reply #100 Top
well, resource hacking started it all. Numerous apps.