All I'm seeing is Seleuceia further and further tying himself into a knot, trying to futilely defend the worth of ModArch to a frontliner.

I shall defer to my previous statement...

Find a post of mine where I say this....

LOL...and you blame me for dodging...

How many accounts do you have, anyway?  Is there like some naming scheme you use to separate the serious accounts from the troll ones?  Do you even have serious accounts? 

This will only favor the health cobalts because then they don't have to regen.

You state earlier modular architecture is really only useful when there is a long distance between you and your enemy. But that information can only be found through scouting. Long distance=longer time to scout. Therefore, we can logically conclude the decision to research modular architecture must be made AFTER your first lab is built, unless you playing with map hacks.

We are talking about a game where being 1-2 ships short of your enemy puts you significantly behind, so yes, it CAN make or break you... I used to start with military labs as TEC 99% of the time too, until I figured out that money is better spent on more cobalts early game than on the stat upgrades. Yes, the repair platform is nice, but I usually get that right after my civ so a delay of 45-60 seconds is not that big of a deal.

You are going to get those anyway, whether you have ModArch or not, so it is a moot point...

So apparently the fact that I believe LRM is better at FFing than illums must mean I live in a different universe? lol...

It can be useful, seems to me like an 50-50% situation, if you colonize many planets with protevs and there are many resource extractors to be built, then it's an awesome research. Otherwise it is unsure if it will even pay the cost of the research back.

Each starting position is different even for a frontliner, how many planets are easy to get, how many extractors can be built on them, how fast the first battle starts etc etc. I would say the excellence of Mod Arch is situational for a frontliner player.

Actually as advent I would prioritze weapon upgrades over hull/armor because of the 50/50 factor and the fact that it gives you the extra edge with malice.

Vasari are played at much less rates than that. Nice try.

Are we talking the Aeria's mine control ability or them actually laying mines? Because Im pretty sure the former is tier 3.

My quote:

"They is no way to put this... you are 100% completely wrong. I never see advent leading two military labs before civilian, its usually a combination of both or just all civilian."

Because early game that extra resource is better spent on a factory to output more ships? Ships>upgrades super early game.

For posterity, I will include my original statement:

With hindsight, it is obvious that modular architecture is better and better the more room and easy grab planets you have...it is true that you will only know this for certain once you've had time to scout...however, there are many choices you make that with hindsight were clearly not the best choice, but at the time they seemed like a good idea...

What direction do you send your cap verses your lone colony ship?  What capital ship do you lead with?  Do you prep for eco or for frontliner?  You can guess which decision is likely the best...for example, outer planets tend to have more direct paths to your enemy, so you should probably send cap to those...marza is a solid lead, but an akkan might have been better if your HW doesn't directly connect to neither your roid nor moon...usually you can tell from player placement what role you are, but every once in awhile you might be surprised to find a player cramped between you and a teammate...

This game is full of calculated risks where you make a choice based on a few assumptions...the payoff time of any item is based off of what actually happens, but you can predict the payoff time based off of what tends to happen even if you might get lucky some games or screwed in others...modular architecture, like many other choices, is a calculated risk...when I pick it, I'm assuming that I will pay it off because I'll be able to get 2+ planets beyond my initial roid/moon...I try to control the risk by only getting it when I know I'll have 3 extractors at both my moon/roid and have an akkan to easily grab several planets at map center...

This statement makes no sense...maybe you meant to say "new" instead of health?  It wouldn't matter though, because any tech will fully aid ships built after the fact, regardless of whether it is HP or armor...

The conventional wisdom on this has been discussed to great length in the past...IIRC, it was Greg who laid down these general rules, and I agree with them...you want to get hull techs (and then shield techs if Advent) first so that as many ships as possible reap these benefits before dying....armor techs and weapon techs can be saved until right before battle (or even during) since they affect your ships instantly...but that's in theory, in practice you might find yourself in combat before being able to get all the techs, so you might have to make some choices...as I stated earlier, I might be inclined to pick a tier 1 armor upgrade over a tier 2 hull upgrade if my fleet (or Orky) is already in combat and taking damage...

No, it's not...if I lead with akkan, I can send it to random moons/roids/barrens/deserts/terrans at map center all by its lonesome, and it can colonize those planets...I could, in theory, send a marza (or whatever cap I lead with), but that cap is far more valuable for going on the offensive or being with the fleet to level....furthermore, the cap itself can't colonize, which means I have to bring colony frigates, and those may not be very viable if I'm jumping through lots of planets to get to where I want...the AM is also a killer...in short, an akkan will allow me to get more planets than another cap....

I would put which tech of those you get first on the same level as what side of your HW your factories are on...it might matter, but in the grand scheme of things you can survive with either choice...for the record, I start with one civ and one mil as TEC unless I'm experimenting...it's not hard to be building cobalts nonstop or almost nonstop while simultaneously getting stat upgrades through mil techs, so I'm not sure why you would research the techs if you can...

No where in that quote did I say lums FF better than LRMs...I do however find it funny that you think 30 LRMs can rape a lvl 6 prog in a ridiculously short period of time...either you don't play the same Sins I do, or your blinks are very very slow...

The 50/50 factor doesn't change the fundamental issue, which is that max hull/shield techs only immediately benefit ships built after the tech is researched...if you are engaging the enemy before you are able to have both hull and both laser techs, then you don't have malice yet anyway...

Maybe you should try playing random more...all the cool kids do it...seriously, a lot of people random now...besides, not uncommon for games to be all random...and really?  You really are arguing Vasari are unpopular?  Who do you even play with?

Both are tier 2...and I'm talking homing mines...

LOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL

First, let us consider the possible combinations....who in their right mind goes one civ lab as advent?  What can you possibly do with one civ lab as advent?  Now, let us focus on the other part of your statement...

[quote/]just all civilian."[/quote]

So either you are building one civ lab and that's it (bad idea) or you are building 2 civ labs...my logic could be wrong though, you could have in fact been suggesting that one leads with 3 civ labs....

Super early game you aren't getting a 3rd factory...come on man....

LMAO at Sel convenient shift in his viewpoint.... I was the one who STATED THAT HEALTH was better than armor/hull... and he vehemently disagreed... now he is trying to take all of that back and agree with me? LMAO!

This is exactly my point... why would you research something that has a huge risk of not even breaking even and with a crap potential ROI when you can research the metal that has 0% risk and a great ROI... I'm guessing you failed AP Stats, Seleuceia?

What??? You literally said armor was surperior to health because the latter needs time to regenerate... but then went on to state that health is superior when it fully regenerated... All I'm saying is that since new ships don't have to regen, researching health is better than researching armor...

You seem to forget that researching metal will also increase the extractor rate at these "random" planets at map center...

And the rest of that statement is so irrelevant I wonder if I'm playing the same game as you. Even a halfwit would exploit this great opportunity where your cap is on the other side of the map. His marza gets to level 6, BOOM missile barrage, BAM all your ships are dead because your akkan was out colonizing like a moron instead of using Ion Bolt.

Huh? Plenty of people have malice before the four stat upgrades.

Apparently you can't read because I clearly said most advent leads with 2 civ labs or 1 civ and 1 military,..

Cute attempt at embarrassing me, but you have only embarrased yourself...

My original statement:

A statement in the middle: 

Another middle statement:

My most recent statement:

They all basically say the same thing...

What comes first, metal income from these planets or building the extractor?  They necessarily go hand in hand...if you are earning metal income, you necessarily built extractors...also, there is no rule whatsoever that says you must pick one or the other....you can research both modular architecture and metal upgrades...

It doesn't have a huge risk of not breaking even...it has a very small risk of not breaking even, and a moderate risk of not breaking even in a timely manner...maybe I'm just willing to take that risk, or maybe I'm just better at colonizing center?

Also, out of curiousity...

How does one reduce a 0% rate of return?  Are you suggesting that scouting can cause this tech to magically lose resources over time?  This must be a complicated math theorem you learned in your high school math class...

Better for the new ships...not necessarily better for ships in the fight...hence why the number of ships currently in the fight and your reinforcement rate are both considerations...

Again, there is nothing that says you can't research both techs...the order is irrelevant by the time you are colonizing center, since you will have both techs...

LOL

I do this all the time with a prog or akkan...build a repair and a few turrets around a planet on the frontline, and keep throwing LFs at it...the enemy could attack, but if you stay by the few defenses, you will have advantage and will be closer to your factories...your enemy will lose more ships than you and may get only a lvl or 2 for their cap...even if your enemy does have a marza, I'm perfectly fine facing a lvl 4 marza later on if it meant my opponent lost more ships and I colonized planets at the center...

You act like stalemates never happen...I find they happen quite a lot, and that I'm able to get away with my cap being elsewhere all the time...I also see other players do it a lot, sometimes even with a non colony cap if only to level their cap without engaging the enemy....

If you research non stop, you can get those techs before you see your enemy...unless of course your enemy is really close, but then they wouldn't have had enough militia to kill to get to lvl 2, and certainly not lvl 3...at close range, I find I'm researching the laser upgrades just as the fleets engage, which means my existing ships have already had the effect of the hull techs for some time (hopefully enough for passive regen to do its thing)...besides, the extra damage you get from comboing +5% to weapons with lvl 1 malice is not going to compare to having 5% extra hull for each ship....

The clarity of your post is not in question...the accuracy of it, however, is quite dubious...

Maybe if your Illuminators are close enough to the LRMs (which are likely in a line), the side beams can engage other Illuminators, thus softening up the next target so to speak. Just a thought, I haven't done any actual testing to speak of.

You guys should start looking for a new hobby.

Maybe "we" are the same person...

Nah.........

*Refering to my statement that said health is better than armor*

His next few statements:

LOL no they don't... By this point I don't even know what you believe... are you an armor or health person, Seleuceia?

Researching two civ stat upgrades in early game as frontliner is a surefire way to lose the game for your team...

But there is a RISK, however small (I actually think its quite large)... THAT is my point... the metal upgrades don't have any and also have a higher ROI than the ModArch...

I am going to give Selueceia the benefit of the doubt here and assume he is a just fifth grader who hasn't learned about negative numbers yet...

Low number of ships=lower dps=more time for ships to regen their health before shields are gone...

By the time you are researching center, that is past early game... try to stay on topic...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Maybe you're just bad Sel but I find my capital ship levels to 2 pretty quickly after engaging fleet.

The only thing dubious here is your elementary-level mastery of mathematics...

*Looks at the number of my posts*

*Sees around ~20*

*Looks at Teun's numer of posts*

*Sees 1487*

Troll detected

Armor is and has always been superior to HP on a 5% HP vs. 1 armor basis -- I'm not aware of any test refuting this...now, if you talk about armor and HP techs, then it depends on the situation....I don't really see how you would "test" a technology, but I can see testing armor upgrades vs. hull upgrades in a battle, so I only assumed in that statement, you were comparing hull to armor...armor wins hands down, there really is no argument there....

Armor and hull techs is a different matter...for TEC, it probably will be hull since their armor techs are not as good, but having a lot of ships in a fast and furious fight (especially if you got some AoEs hitting you) is going to mean that you won't immediately reap the benefits of researching an HP tech, and thus I'd probably want armor...but if you are Vasari, tier for tier you are probably better off with the armor tech most of the time since you get 1.0 armor for each tech...if you got an Orky or cap with some hull damage, armor is favored even more....

But getting 2 civ labs and rushing culture isn't?  Can't have it both ways...and since you think it's viable as advent to start with only 1 civ lab, there must be some tier 1 civ tech you think Advent should research early on too....can't imagine what it is....

I don't think anyone is arguing metal is inferior to modular architecture, but you keep assuming that they are mutually exclusive, that you cannot research both of them, and I don't find that to be true...both can be researched, so the question is, what order should you research them?  It only makes sense that if you are going to bother researching both, you should start with modular architecture...you will have both of those mod techs researched before you got even 2 extractors built (possibly not even any), and then you can research the metal just as you are finishing up the extractors on your roid and moon...the opportunity cost of getting metal 2 minutes later is negligible, since for those few minutes you'd only be getting metal income from the two extractors on your HW...meanwhile, getting modular architecture later could have deprived you of 50-100 credit savings on 4-6 extractors (remember, you break even at 5 for one level and about 6 for both levels, so your moon/roid alone could make the tech(s) pay for themselves)....

How does modular architecture give a negative rate of return?  It doesn't cause you to lose income per second...you can't have it both ways, if you claim it has a 0% rate of return then it can't cause you to lose income over time...in fact, you said it won't even pay for itself over the course of the entire game, which is blatantly false...if you never are building 6+ extractors in an entire game, then I have no idea how you play Sins...

I'll assume you mean "colonizing" center, not researching....and no, it is not past early game...at least not for me...

Laugh all you want...I just know it works against all players except those substantially better than me....

So what's wrong with getting the laser techs just as the party is starting?  They don't take long at all to get...

That's strange, I see 20 replies on your profile . Also I have less than 300 posts so my name should be removed from Ragnarok's ridiculous thread about reigns of terror and whatnot. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds my inclusion blasphemous.

When did I ever claim 5% HP was better than 1 armor? Stop misrepresenting my position. Anybody with an ounce of reading comprehension clearly understands I was talking about tier 1 TEC upgrades.

LOL? You do know that not only is vasari HP upgrade tier 1, but you can get 2 of them for the price of one armor with a sizable amount of money left over?

WTF??? We are talking about tier 1 upgrades... AoE's are not going to be on the battlefield by that point... Do you go braindead in MP?

Do you even play MP? I get plenty of 1 extractor starts on my two dwarfs/asteroids all the time...

LOL at Seleuceia thinking there's no such thing as a negative rate of return...

So you're colonzing center planets at 10 minutes into the game? Do you play against easy AI?

How to lose a game, a guide by Seleuceia

1. Have your prog/akkan be 2-3 jumps away from frontline

2. Build only ONE repair, but a few turrets for some reason

3. Level the enemy prog/marza by 1-2 levels while your capital ship stays at level 2

4. Spend money on planet development while a fierce battle rages on the frontline, diverting ship funds

5. Get your prog sniped by corvettes as it races to the battle

6. Prog now level to 6, endless spam of malice

7. Marza levels to 6, BOOM your dead, BAM your ships all die, SPLAT there goes your planets...

8. Play with only AI after the game

LOL? So not only are you advocating researching ModArch, but ALL of the laser/hull/HP upgrades before you even see your enemy? LOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Well you see, the difficulty with that is the OP can no longer access his account....so that list can't exactly be changed...it's okay, builds character...

You know Sin, I continued this thread in the hopes that you might have one of your other accounts agree with you or something -- you know, do that whole tag team deal...maybe even form a whole Sinkillr bandwagon of likeminded people...it's really boring just going in circles with only one person....

Classic dodging by Seleuceia...

When all else fails and you get your ass handed to you in an argument, pretend you never engaged in it in the first place...

No one would know Sel lost an argument because your posts are pages long each. In the modern world of 140 characters no one actually reads your posts...

So this is Sells alternate account... I should have known earlier since Woe defends everything that you say

... and always criticizes me...

Mission accomplished, now to have a celebratory 

When you start contradicting yourself, I can't give you the benefit of the doubt that you might be serious this time...

Would you prefer I throw the troll flag on everything you say?

Cheers...me...