Got Rebellion. It's impossible.

Are you kidding me? I just bought my first Sins game, Rebellion from steam, tried easy with an ally and the ally spammed and won in minutes.. So googled some things and found a map forge map that allows me to take my time, with the AI kept at bay and able to focus on pirates.  So.. I maxed out all my research and threw like 5 fleets of well over 1500 ships of all types including titans at the single pirate planet and am decimated in seconds by the pirates and their titan. 

 

Really, I've never seen a tougher game in my entire life time.  There is no game that has anything on Sins in terms of sheer difficulty and learning curve.  This pirate faction and their giant pirate Titan that basically destroys 1000 ships in seconds is just absurd.  I've read in the wiki to try to get around it its forward firing arc.. yeah like that does any good at all...

 

... so basically the whole game has come down to me throwing fleet after fleet each 1000 ships strong at this single pirate planet and getting killed outright every time..  in seconds..  and this is on the easiest custom map ever made on the easiest game settings.. and i still cannot do ANYTHING to the enemy which at this point is just pirates.  My god.. how are you suppose to kill that pirate Titan when it destroys everything outright?  This is just so rediculous I've spent 10 hours attacking one pirate system and can't do anything to take it..

 

Other than the game being hard as nails, my big issues with this game is Rebellion's tutorials miss some major talking points: like 1: you will die many many times in your first games.  2: Disable pirates if you want any chance at a victory.  3: It's missing the easy custom campaign that is designed for noobs which is DETREMENTAL for the retail game of Rebellion not to include as the recommended first map to play, a map that eases new players into the game, and allows them to get a handle on the mechanics without a gun to their heads.

32,209 views 47 replies
Reply #1 Top



Really, I've never seen a tougher game in my entire life time. There is no game that has anything on Sins in terms of sheer difficulty and learning curve. This pirate faction and their giant pirate Titan that basically destroys 1000 ships in seconds is just absurd. I've read in the wiki to try to get around it its forward firing arc.. yeah like that does any good at all...
End of quote

I think you're talking about my map. Pirates do not normally have a titan, I just wanted to give you some truly tough systems to practice attacking, since they can never repair their forces. :blush:   If you can defeat the toughest systems on that map, you probably can handle most things the AI can throw at you, at least within the scope of a single battle.

... so basically the whole game has come down to me throwing fleet after fleet each 1000 ships strong at this single pirate planet and getting killed outright every time.. in seconds.. and this is on the easiest custom map ever made on the easiest game settings.. and i still cannot do ANYTHING to the enemy which at this point is just pirates. My god.. how are you suppose to kill that pirate Titan when it destroys everything outright? This is just so rediculous I've spent 10 hours attacking one pirate system and can't do anything to take it...
End of quote

Titans, especially the Ragnarov (which is normally the TEC Rebel titan), have very good area of effect (AoE) abilities. This means they are very good at destroying large groups of frigates, as you saw. Here's some concise tips to keep in mind when fighting titans with AoE attacks.

1. Advent and TEC titans are cannot target corvettes or strikecraft with their AoE attacks. This means Corvettes and carriers are the ideal frigates to build to counter them, since their normal weapons cannot hope to defeat large numbers of them.

2. You must use your capitalships to maximum effect to defeat properly supported titans. In particular, each faction has a capitalship with an ability that can drain titan antimatter. Without antimatter, titans cannot use their devastating AoE abilities. For the TEC, it's the Dunov Battlecruiser with EMP, for the Advent it's the Radiance battleship with Detonate Antimatter, and for the Vasari it's the Kortul Devestator with Disruptive Strikes. Any other capitalships that are good against single targets will also come in handy.

3. Alas, having your own titan is often the best way to deal with the enemy's. These should be properly supported by repair cruisers and capitalships in the back so you can stay in the fight longer. Similarly, destroying any repair bays or ships helping the enemy titan can be helpful, though obviously you should only attempt this while the enemy titan is distracted.

 

The level of the titan is also extremely important. Level 1 titans can be overwhelmed by tons of frigates, preferably heavy cruisers, as the tougher the individual unit, the harder it is for AoE abilities to quickly destroy them.

Reply #2 Top

Thanks for your response and yea, it probably is your custom map.  Let me run down your points tho:

1)I've diversified with every kind of fleet, including mostly carriers.  And they are wiped out by the AoE instantly..

2)I'll try to use the EMP ship as you suggest, the Dunov, tho I'm not even sure if they are regenerating destroyed faciliities which I've spent so much time destroying... so that could be an issue.  You said pirates dont regenerate their defenses.. but it sure feels like it.

 

3)My TEC titan has about 8k HP.. the pirate one, 14K hp.. theres really no chance when you do that math, lol.

 

4) How the heck do I upgrade my TEC titan beyond level 3, or is that not possible?

 

And lastly, those pirates are crafty as hell even on this noob map.  They bypass multiple starbases in order to attack that one planet way back in your empire that doesn't have fully beefed up defenses.. and they seem to be getting larger in their fleets all the time.. I'm not sure I can even hold them at this point.

 

And for what it's worth, I think it was a huge mistake for the devs not to include hand holding map like yours into the game.. Just because Rebellion caters to veterans who need more challenges doesn't mean they can't cater to new players as well.

 

Thanks agian for ur fast response.

Reply #3 Top

1) Carrier fleets should be kept on the far end of a gravity well, as far away from combat units as possible.

2) Don't give the AI a chance to recover. Siege their planets so that the AI cannot immediately rebuild. Turning pirates off is an option in the game settings, the tab is right next to the victory options tab.

3) The custom map that you are playing is harder than the standard game, no wonder you are struggling.

4) Titans level up when enemy ships in the same grav-well are destroyed. I believe that the Titan itself has to do the killing for it to gain XP.Max. level for Titans is the same as for capital ships, it is level 10.

 Proper positioning of starbases is crucial and weapon and AOE upgrades can make it difficult for pirate forces to get past them unscathed. However, I suggest that next time you turn off the pirates. This will greatly ease the learning curve. A map designed to cause an early confrontation with pirates was never designed for noobs, the maps that came with the game are much easier. Playing a standard map with easy AI and without pirates is noob-friendly enough. Once you get the hang of defeating other AI players, the pirates become little more than free XP.

I suggest playing a medium map with several empty player slots so that it takes longer for you to come into contact with enemy factions, increasing the time you have to build up.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
1)I've diversified with every kind of fleet, including mostly carriers. And they are wiped out by the AoE instantly..
End of MCBmaestro's quote

With Carriers, you need to keep them out of range of the titan, by constantly moving them if necessary (AKA kiting). Granted that will be harder with that mob of pirate ships, but once you grind them down they should work pretty well. Carriers are actually pretty tough units for short periods of time.

If you're worried about doing this, Corvettes might be the safer choice, though they are more vulnerable to some of the pirate frigates, but the titan's abilities cannot harm them.

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
2)I'll try to use the EMP ship as you suggest, the Dunov, tho I'm not even sure if they are regenerating destroyed faciliities which I've spent so much time destroying... so that could be an issue. You said pirates dont regenerate their defenses.. but it sure feels like it.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

The pirate raids, the forces that periodically attack you, will continue to be generated. What might be happening is you are bidding on the AI to get the pirates to attack it instead of you. This is a bad idea, since the pirates cannot attack the AI, they might just warp into the base and stay there, in effect reinforcing it. But neither the militia nor the pirates can ever actually build new ships or defenses (bar the occasional ability like the Sova's missile turrets, but these are tempoary).

It's much better to let the pirates attack you, especially on this map. They'll be good XP for your titan and capitalships, which you'll need high level ships for those high end maps.

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
3)My TEC titan has about 8k HP.. the pirate one, 14K hp.. theres really no chance when you do that math, lol.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

I'm assuming you're TEC loyalist. The only way that would happen is either the pirates invested several titan levels into stat defense (a bad idea) or that Ragnarov is a much higher level than you. That would certainly be the result of losing that large fleet. And the difference between say a level 3 titan and a level 8 one is very large indeed, though you (and the AI in the future) have the option to rebuild your titan at the level it was destroyed at. The pirates do no have that option.

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
4) How the heck do I upgrade my TEC titan beyond level 3, or is that not possible?
End of MCBmaestro's quote

All titans only level up by experience. Experience is generated by destroying enemy ships, and this is evenly distributed among all allied capitalships and titans below level 10 (the max level). Lets say you destroy a ship worth 100 XP. If you just had a titan in the gravity well, your titan would get all 100 XP. If you had a capitalship as well, the titan and the cap would each get 50 XP.

I realize I just said capitalships are important for defeating titans, but a mistake many new players make is they build too many capitalships early. Until they reach mid to high levels, frigates offer more stats (health and DPS) for the cost and fleet supply. Capitalships should be used primarily for their special abilities, which are much more effective at higher levels. Not only that, but the XP sharing I described above slows the level rate of all caps and titans, and in Sins a few high level capitalships are generally better than several low level ones.

As for actually leveling your titan, you can continue to farm pirate raids. You can send your capitalships away to the other star systems to take the weakly defended planets on the map if you want just the titan to get the XP(though you might run into pirate raids on those planets too, but you could just defeat the militia without colonizing the planets if needed). For capitalships, you can also "Buy" levels up to level 3 (4 with research), which while usually not worth while, it maybe good for this particular map, especially to get that Dunov.

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
And lastly, those pirates are crafty as hell even on this noob map. They bypass multiple starbases in order to attack that one planet way back in your empire that doesn't have fully beefed up defenses.. and they seem to be getting larger in their fleets all the time.. I'm not sure I can even hold them at this point.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

That is strange, I haven't played with the pirates on much but usually they only attack frontline planets, though they'll sometimes be creative in how they get there (going through the star for example. They will ignore starbases at unowned planets/stars).

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 2
And for what it's worth, I think it was a huge mistake for the devs not to include hand holding map like yours into the game.. Just because Rebellion caters to veterans who need more challenges doesn't mean they can't cater to new players as well.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

They did add two new tutorials covering the stuff added in the previous expansions, but before Rebellion you could disable all the AI on any map, so my sort of map wasn't necessary (not sure why at least 1 AI is required now). However the generic mix of at most 15 frigates guarding normal planets and the 30 or so frigates and 20 defense guns guarding a single pirate base on it might seem a bit anticlimatic, and doesn't really help you with defeating real formations of units.

As much pain as that heavily guarded pirate titan might have caused you, at least it's stuck in its cage so to speak. You're free to figure out how to beat it without it being an existential threat to you. Hopefully that will help when you fight one that is free to chase you to your home world. If you play through that map in it's entirety, virtually every unit in the game is present somewhere in order for you to see what they do, though I suspect by the time you take out that pirate base all but the "final battle" will be much easier for you.

Quoting JuleTron, reply 3
3) The custom map that you are playing is harder than the standard game, no wonder you are struggling.
End of JuleTron's quote

For the pirates and several of the heavily defended planets, yes it's quite possible he would never fight forces that hard against the easy AI. But at the same time he has unlimited time to build up to eventually take out those planets, which is something you cannot get from a standard Rebellion map. It maybe a bit rough for a "hand holding map", but hopefully it provides some worthwhile lessons without the stigma of having to lose a game in order to learn them.

Quoting JuleTron, reply 3

I believe that the Titan itself has to do the killing for it to gain XP
End of JuleTron's quote

This is false. A capitalship or titan merely has to be present in the gravity well when an enemy is destroyed.

Reply #5 Top

Ok thanks again guys, all that info was extremely helpful.   And yeah, I really love this custom map, it's given me what I really wanted, a chance to fight some tough foes with little or no chance of total defeat.  I think you learn a lot more about what works and what doesn't in a map like this and still think they should include it and suggest new players play it first. :)

 

Btw, was this map created simply with the in game editor or was there some other modding done?  I plan to see the whole thing so I can design some similiar ones for myself after I finish this one.

Reply #6 Top

Please provide a link, I don't think I've Seen this map.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 6
Btw, was this map created simply with the in game editor or was there some other modding done? I plan to see the whole thing so I can design some similiar ones for myself after I finish this one.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

There are actually two tools for making maps in Sins. The in game editor is used for making Random maps. You specify certain parameters, and the game will generate a a map with those parameters every time it's played. Since it's random, you can define more specific features like planet names or defending forces, it uses the default values for everything like that. You can still do some pretty interesting things with that though (See Random Ring map), and it's probably the quicker way to make a map.

The other tool is the Galaxy Forge, included in your Rebellion install directory. This is what I used, and is more like your typical level editor, you individually place each planet you want, and can customize what you find at each planet (for example from my map each race starts with it's colonizer capital ship, or the guaranteed artifact on "Explore Me" etc.). The map layout is generally the same each time you play it, like the Non-Random Sins maps. The only real problem is for things like those customized militia and pirates you fight, you need to do some tweaks by editting the map in notepad.

 

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 7
Please provide a link, I don't think I've Seen this map.
End of SithLordAJ's quote

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420667

 

Reply #8 Top

Ok, I hate to do this.. but I'm really still struggling with the pirates..  I killed the other AI player so easily I don't even remember taking him out other than I think my level 8 Titan did the job alone easily.  Either way, the Diplomacy screen simply shows him as 'Dead'.

 

Now to the pirates.  The (*&(%*$#&@$(*#@ Ragnarovs to be specific.

 

This ship doesn't even fit into this game... It's a Death Star on overkill... Level 1 Ragnarov vs my entire fleet, maxed with full fleet capacity including my level 8 TEC Titan, and I can't touch a level one.   I thought, "Hey I should level up my fleet of cap ships doing hit and run attacks against the other pirate planets with a level 1 Ragnarov in them, slowely levelling up my whole fleet not just my Titan!"

 

Nope!  Even if I tell them to retreat as soon as they jump in, I lose at least one Cap ship, which defeats the purpose of trying to level them up in the first place.  And since theres nothing left to attack but the 3 or so pirate planets, I'm screwed.   Not only that every time I attack them and flee and lose like one cap ship, the respective Level 1 Ragnarov at that planet essentially doubles in level.  Not like these pirate planets should even have a single Ragnarov defending them.. they are a death trap already and I see no way at all to counter this.

Seriously, I give up, tell me the answer here.  If theres a way to defeat all these pirate systems just please, tell me.  I've heard stick with corvettes as they can avoid the AoE of their Ragnarovs, NOPE!... nothing stops the Ragnorovs, they one shot, one kill all ships that are non cap in the gravity well and a level 8 TEC Titan loses 6000 sheilds in one hit from a Level 1 Ragnarov.  Really? 

I can't do anything at this point.  I'm demoralized.  And that final planet where theres like 4 titans in one planet? Omg lol.. yeah right... If you can beat this please don't simply suggest strategies but tell me exacly how you beat it, do a FRAPS and put it on you tube or something...

I'm so done with the junk heap that is the TEC.  The Ragnoarov is invincible.  I won't belive otherwise until I see some kind of proof on a video...

Reply #9 Top

Just

Turn

The

Pirates

Off!

Reply #11 Top

Alright I'll just restart with them off since they are so overkill in strenght. :/

Reply #12 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 9
I'm so done with the junk heap that is the TEC. The Ragnoarov is invincible. I won't belive otherwise until I see some kind of proof on a video...
End of MCBmaestro's quote

I'll give it a shot next chance I get.

Quoting Ryat, reply 10
Just

Turn

The

Pirates

Off!
End of Ryat's quote

It's not the pirate raids he's having trouble with, it's attacking a way stronger pirate base in a custom map.

Quoting D00my88, reply 11
this map looks funny, any way to have a download link ?
End of D00my88's quote

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 8
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420667

End of GoaFan77's quote

Reply #13 Top

Oh and one last thing I was wondering is there anything I should know about creating a map that denies AI's from being able to attack the player?  I was thinking have them at their own star with only one planet and no wormholes but couldn't they research star to star travel still?

Reply #14 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 14
Oh and one last thing I was wondering is there anything I should know about creating a map that denies AI's from being able to attack the player? I was thinking have them at their own star with only one planet and no wormholes but couldn't they research star to star travel still?
End of MCBmaestro's quote

Just don't give their planet any phase lanes at all in Galaxy Forge. And make sure you set "Randomize Positions" to False.

Reply #16 Top

Sorry Goa just one last thing, I can't seem make enemy ships at planets like you did.  Where it says "Spawn these items for" I don't have the blanked out option in the drop down that groups at your planets have. 

Reply #17 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 17
Sorry Goa just one last thing, I can't seem make enemy ships at planets like you did. Where it says "Spawn these items for" I don't have the blanked out option in the drop down that groups at your planets have.
End of MCBmaestro's quote

I know, that part is a pain, you have to edit the map in notepad after you save your galaxy forge map. You can't do that from the GalaxyForge. See this thread for more details on that.

Reply #18 Top

Ok cool seems to be changing it in notepad to RandomMilitia.  thx again

Reply #19 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 19
Ok cool seems to be changing it in notepad to RandomMilitia.  thx again
End of MCBmaestro's quote

No problem. I recorded that video you wanted and made it a general tutorial on killing titans, but the target is that first pirate base, so hopefully that helps. I'll upload it tomorrow.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 9
I'm so done with the junk heap that is the TEC. The Ragnoarov is invincible. I won't belive otherwise until I see some kind of proof on a video...
End of MCBmaestro's quote

Here you go. The fight starts at around 19 minutes if you don't want my explanations again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKACgRXozPM

 

Reply #21 Top

Quoting MCBmaestro, reply 14
Oh and one last thing I was wondering is there anything I should know about creating a map that denies AI's from being able to attack the player?  I was thinking have them at their own star with only one planet and no wormholes but couldn't they research star to star travel still?
End of MCBmaestro's quote

Could also mod the game to remove star travel from your opponent's research list.  Just make sure you are not the same faction as them.

I'ma have to try out this map later too...

-Huzzah!

Reply #22 Top

As I'm sure others have said, the game isn't actually that hard. It's really a matter of learning which units counter which, and then learning to exploit the strengths of your particular faction. Of course there are other things that will help you, such as how to effectively use star bases against the AI. 

 

One thing that I do think is broken ATM is that Titans come back with their level intact. GoaFan made a great mod that addresses this. It has an option to make titans come back at level 1 once you destroy them. If you can keep your titan alive throughout the game while destroying other titans, it puts you at a well-deserved advantage.

 In fact, the Sins AI is not really that smart. I'd love to see some improvements in that department.

Not a hard game, really. You'll get it.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Codexehow, reply 23
 In fact, the Sins AI is not really that smart. I'd love to see some improvements in that department.

Not a hard game, really. You'll get it.
End of Codexehow's quote

 

They should tone down the resource cheat with the unfair Ai because you end up facing an Armada just after the first engagement.

Reply #24 Top

Agreed.  I don't mind cheats to help the AI, but I do think it's a bit high in the upper difficulties.

-Huzzah!

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Twilight_Storm, reply 25
Agreed.  I don't mind cheats to help the AI, but I do think it's a bit high in the upper difficulties.

-Huzzah!
End of Twilight_Storm's quote

 

Then dont use those and leave the fun of decimating huge AI fleets to the people who want to. ;P