[0.981][Balance] Blindness on Darkling Warriors

I like the blindness actually, I think the problem is in the spell itself though, it is incredibly powerful compared to level 1 spells.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I think all the new spells being cast by monsters are great, but they also really highlight two issues:

• Many of the spells need a time limit
• Spells like blindness should be limited to several turns of combat, much like curse already is;
• Spells like slow and haste should go back to being slightly OP, but again with a turn limit; in my 0.981 game, so far I have cast haste a dozen times and have only seen it affect turn order once (and that was against a troll where I got one three-turn streak amongst many two-turns). +3 initiative just isn't enough to affect the turns, and if it doesn't affect turns then it is useless. I'd much prefer a +6(+1) boost for three turns.
• Desperately need an accessible, school-agnostic disspell to remove permanent debuffs like shrink. Like countersell, it should be available to all mages.
• I would be happy for the generic version to be spell-agnostic, something like purge magic, and have it remove all effects, both positive and negative, from any friendly or enemy unit for the duration of the battle. This includes temporarily removing enchantments that were cast from strategic map, and buffs/debuffs you might have cast yourself. This makes it a bit situational, but always a last line when you really need that enchantment removed.
• Schools can have their own, better versions, just as with counterspell. Life can get cleanse to remove all negative effects from a friendly, or purify for the entire battlefield. Death gets divert energy to steal buffs from baddies (removing the buff from the victim in the process) to complement the existing spell that spreads debuffs (is it contaminate?). Air might have a deflect magic prophylactic to protect against tactical debuffs, etc etc.

Being permanently shrunk is no fun; now that these spells are being used against me, I care more

Why? That is a personal preference, I like that most spells except 1 spell I never use lasts the entire battle, actually makes them important, but also makes spell resistance important!.

I don't agree it should be readily available, but a tactical disenchant for unit debuffs and meaby unit buffs would be nice.
Meaby a few versions, the fire version dealing fire damage (even if cast on an ally), the water version granting mana, the earth version granting bonus defense (Even if cast on the enemy).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

personally i want the role of support mage to exist

when i play proci i dont ever use 1 offensive spell

so spamming healing all the time isnt that fun and i made all buffs  short duration and more strong so you can really use them as they were attacks (like greatly buffing dmg for 1 turn etc)

apart from this buffs and debuffs lasting too long is unbalanced because they are too good if casted by non mages

right now you dont want a mage with haste

you want a WARRIOR with haste, because haste just matter for 1 turn, after that its better having a warrior, ofc this could be solve making buffs more dependant on the caster, like dmg spells are

this is a plain nonsese, mages should be the best casters

last but not least monsters sometimes makes op combo

if you fight  a darkling with a warrior and you get blinded its game over

how can that be fun? at least witha duration you have a window to take down your opponent

Indeed, I am only offering some suggestions
They may or may not be good, and if they break something else you get to keep both pieces. 

I'd like them to be important as well, but as I said, +3/-3 to initiative is anything but important. Most of the time, it has no visible effect. I'd like these spells to be useful, and if that means a turn limit to prevent abuse then so be it. Haste at +6(+1) for a few turns will really turn the battle if cast at the right time, haste at +3(+1) is useless. Blindness is already very powerful, especially compared to curse which has an effect of similar power but has a casting time as well as a turn limit.

Furthermore, I think time-limited buffs/debuffs are more interesting tactically. I have to think about when I should cast curse in a battle to maximise its usefulness, and it often comes as a tradeoff against making a melee attack. On the other hand, current use case for blindness/slow/haste is to spend a few turns at the start of battle casting all the buffs/debuffs you can without a second thought, and then proceeed for the rest of battle without having to worry about them. In my opinion, something that I do automatically at the start of every combat isn't interesting; either make it a permanent buff with an upkeep, or give it a turn limit to increase tactical planning.

I don't find counterspell to be always readily available when I want it, because it is limited to mages. I am suggesting the same here.

ddd888: totally agree with everything you said

I see tactical support spells split into three categories, some are enchantments and are permanent for the battle (burning blade and friends - these are usually things you can cast in strategic as well), some lower-level buffs/debuffs that are often accessible to non-mages are time-limited (haste/slow/curse/blindness/wither/...) while some of the more powerful ones that tend to be only cast by mages are permanent with a mage-limited disspell option (shrink/giant form/graveseal/...), so if you want to take out a darkling shaman you better bring a mage to the fight.

Another reason for turn limits is scaling mana cost on non-damage spells.

Damage spells let you control mana spend through repeat application. Of the non-damage spells, right now many are too cheap (because they should be accessible) while many are too expensive for what they do, so they don't get cast until the lategame. Turn limits let you keep the spells cheap and accessible, but control mana burn with the same repeated application approach as damage spells enjoy: if I only have a little mana, I can plan to use it for my one cast of blindness at just the right time, but if I have mana to burn I can have my support mage spam blindness all day long.

yup also it would be better to have aoe versions in case you want (and can) burn mana even more, so mass haste etc

@ Sratner: You make an interesting point.

The only problem I see is the haste/slow in this case, since if haste last lets say 3 turns, it also makes those 3 turns come faster, and that is kind of counter intuitive if you ask me, 20% quick turns for 3 turns = 60% more turn... that is not worth using 1 turn on.

Slow on the other hand, will make the 3 turn duration come slower, but now it would only be used against already slow monsters!.

Also casting blindness on a fast unit, will make that unit get rid of its own blindness quicker, all of a sudden initiative becomes an even more important factor in combat than it already is!
While the turn notion is interesting, I personally don't want initiative to become more important, if you could give the spells a separate initiative count, without messing up the UI when 5-6 debuffs are cast, then it would be extremely awesome, but I see it as a lose/win suggestion, either its really cool, or it kind of breaks the buffs/debuffs into annoying or useless... (or still overpowered, but in a new silly way).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I would nerf the spell to 25%. There is just too much power in blinding.

well the initiative problem is real

the more i play and balance the more initiative seems going towards op or at the very least hard to balance

still i think a turn timer is much better

also its a buff to initive for debuffs

but its a nerf for buffs, stuff that grants positive effects lasts less

for example a buff giving 50% dodge for 2 turns is nearly useless on some very fast unit that may move 2 times b4 any opponents do anything

initiative is quite hard to balance

That's not necessarily a bad thing. It means that it is now most beneficial for a support hero or unit (I wish more trained units could cast simple spells!) to cast haste on your most powerful melee or damage mage, since it directly translates into more damage over time, and the spell timer is independent of the caster. [Edit: also, notice that I advocate this in addition to buffing the effect; 20% is indeed low, but 50% would be good so something like +6(+1/air). In theory, haste should result in at least one extra action most of the time.]

It becomes less useful for warriors to haste themselves, as you point out, but I don't find spending the first two turns of combat hanging at the back of the field buffing myself very much fun anyway. After all, battles are supposed to be about tactical decisions; preparation should be done ahead of time, and if you need to spend time preparing yourself at the start of each battle, you've already lost.

The one exception is that it may still be useful for damage mages to haste themselves, if only to speed up spells with a casting time. Think of it as a time-based counterpart to focus: instead of spending an action to make the next more powerful, you spend an action to make the next come sooner. Hastened fireballs for an air/fire mage, and all that goodness.

I like the currentl potency of the blindness spell. I just don't like that it doesn't end. I would think a spell that powerful would wear off after about 10 turns. This way, you get smacked around a bit, yet may recover if you last long enough.

Don't weaken the spell. That completely removes it's point.

Try playing on higher difficulties with the blindness spell.  Mites are supposed to be the easiest mob to defeat, the best way to get from level 1 to 2 or 3.  I payed with a sov and a champion with buffs during early stages of the game and got my ass handed to me cause I missed every single attack except 1 b/c I got blinded by mites....and then died to...MITES!!!

The mite thing is really bad. Why are we giving Death spells to cockroaches?

^ This. 

This is kind of funny, a lot of you were calling for monsters to be tougher and some of you were calling for tactical spells from the AI to be more common. Now they are and people are complaining about that too.

I've commented on debuffs like blind and shrink in previous threads and said there was a need for disenchants or temporary effects from these types of spells. I hope some changes are made in this area but I'm not sure the devs see things the same way.

I don't mind if the Blindness ends in 3-5 turns if I know for a fact that Darkling Warriors will just spam the spell after it ends (just like I have been noticing Shamans spamming Cursed). I think there should be a cap to the number of spells mobs can cast. Right now the only thing going for everlasting debuffs is that players cannot kite away the debuff and engage only after the debuff wear off. 

That aside, I have no problem with the way a lot of spells works, except for the fact that Blindness (and to a lesser extent Curse) is really crippling my level 1 and 2 heroes. 

Speaking of spells on mobs, spiders have gone from menacing dpsers to spider-shaped support mages that largely not know what the hell they are doing. I engaged a bunch of Black Widows that are so engrossed with spamming Beguile and Web because my champions are resisting their spells that they did not pull of a single attack the entire combat. 

I would say monsters deserve to be tougher in the sense that they hit harder, instead they are still dealing 1-2 damage per swing, and now we almost cannot hit them at all. 

Really, blindness should start at 5% and increase by 1% every action. That would be a cool spell. 

no...

the point of blinding is removing the ability to attack  5 % is nothing

maybe start at 50 and slowly wear off, this i could accept

still i think the best way is strong effect, short duration, but even a 50% and slightly decrease coudl be fine

like 50% at start and 5 % less each turn

I'd go with 10% less each turn, but otherwise I agree.  Support mages need more to do than just lobbing a spell or two at the beginning.  Shorter durations to spells would also justify them being increased in magnitude, and make players like me spend their mana faster   I would also like some sort of tactical dispel, even if buffs/debuffs are more limited in duration.

This.

i dont get why you want an eternal rng , randomness should be removed from games its a

25% just means the debuff may destroy a warrior, if lucky or be useless if the warrior lucks

a strong effect means the debuff works always, and its quite strong but for a short duration

yes id like this version of support/combat mages, busy to debuff enemies, buff allies and protect/heal friends

i was thinking maybe some shield?

like a life4-5 spell, increase magic resist by 50 for 3 turns or so

id like a combat dispel too, and i think counterspell mechanic isnt that fun, dunno in general its ok but here i dont like it so much i cant say exactly why