[0.95] Pacing at the start is waaaaaaay too slow

The game really suffers from the terribly slow pacing at the start of the game. Even Frogboy in his video skips the first 70 turns or so (70 turns is a substantial amount of turns in a strategy game!). It is a real problem if you are starting a game with little to no strategic choice until you are a long way into it. Often games drag at the end when the result is inevitable - but this should never happen at the start!

I find that I get into such a mind-set of 'move my one stack - end turn - move my one stack - end turn - etc etc' that I lose concentration of building queues and other things. By about turn 30 or 40 I've lost interest in what I'm doing.

Also, I have no real sense of discovery with the land because it is all just too slow and boring. It becomes a 4X game after about 100 turns or so...

EXplore? Too slow and no real point. Are you trying to discover the best resources and choke-points during this phase. Not really because you have nothing to use to EXpand or EXploit with. EXterminate? With what?!

Once you get to over 100 turns it starts to pan out, but oh man that first phase doesn't do the game any favours at all.

So where is this falling over?

I like that research takes time - but this drags on at the start of the game. I think that this becomes noticeable though because of the rest of the slow pace so I place this in the 'symptom' class rather than the 'cause' class. The starting techs in the Military tree should be available for all factions right from the start though.

Building queues also take a hell of a long time to do anything. However I agree that they should take time. Another symptom!

The underlying cause is the slow movement allowance of the units. 2 squares is like playing hobbled! 3 squares would make a world of difference. I say this since playing Warlock - Master of the Arcane where the standard unit movement is 3 hexes but when you move settlers around with their 2 movement allowance it really highlights the difference.

Another cause is that you don't have much to do for the first 70 odd turns. Need more units to play with right from the start.

Imagine at the start of the game you had a set number of unit production points, say 500 or 600, to spend on buildings or units. You immediately need to exercise strategic choice over setting the city up for the long haul; getting military units to get a start on the surrounds; investing in pioneers to expand; investing in scouts to explore. Things to do right away.

5,566 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

I am fine with the pacing in Elemental though I do set the research pacing to fast during world generation. I like exploring and killing monster lairs, you do feel a bit constrained at the start but it doesn't bother me. I do think that giving you a simple scout unit to start with like other games do would be a nice help. Maybe give each sovereign a familiar they can summon that has 0 upkeep and terrible combat stats.

I have suggested before that like in Master of Orion you can choose your development level to start with. This would allow you to start off with all the early techs and a few buildings and units to give you a head start.
 

 

 

Reply #2 Top

If the pace feels too slow, perhaps playing on Fast would be good for you. Increasing movement would unbalance so many factors, it is probably a non-starter with the devs. I like the movement pace. For me, on normal, all pace is really quite good. The early game, it should be noted is an RPG more than TBS. They certainly have not struck the perfect balance of how that should play out, but this new version plays much better than anything else we have seen. 

I play on all normal factors with a Challenging AI. Middle of the road all the way for the sake of beta testing. I play on a Temperate map or a Balanced Map. I play as Kraxis. If you think the pace is slow, play with 1000 Gildar to start. I can get many many heroes working together and rush some bonuses to research. Exploration is the name of this RPG. You have to get out there, get the early items, and find some research bonuses. Scouting for resources is good too, but mostly research is what I look for. That and easy monsters to level my bands of heroes. By about turn 60 I am pretty much done exploring in RPG style and can really get down to the expansion phase. This is where the game is intended to play more as TBS.

What settings do you use? Which factions? What is your starting strategy? Time to compare if we are getting such different results. My let's play videos are taking forever to upload to Youtube, otherwise you could look at them for comparison.

Reply #3 Top

I, personally, am really enjoying the game pace in beta 4.  It finally feels sufficiently epic.

Could it use a few tweaks early in the game?  Sure.

But here's the deal - if you want high production early in the game, you must settle a 4 material location, preferably next to a forest or river for the added prod/mats.  The difference in production per material between a 2 mat, 3 mat, and 4 mat initial settlement can cause the appearance of slowing the game down production-wise early on.  And if you were to reply "hogwash, the pacing should overall be quicker early on" i would say that this is a strategy game, and the choices between production, food, and essence that now exist truly make this a game full of meaningful basic choices, and the choices are truly the player's to make.

Reply #4 Top


My first impression was that pacing was great for production, but abit too fast on research. This is playing normal speed. Researching the first military techs goes so fast you can have a spearman in leather ready to be produced after building a first building and a pioneer in the capital. No reasons to make the first military techs free, they make you have to choose harder in the start what to research first. The only prob is it's kind of a non brainer choosing the 2 first military techs first. Civilization tech will give you buildings you dont have time too build in a while anyways, and the 2 first magical techs can also wait, no need to rush them.

I don't feel I have to little to do when it comes to exploration and securing territory either.

Conclusion: Slow down the tech speed abit on normal, keep the pace as it is otherwise. This will make the tech choices harder. Now I find myself rushing the tree all too fast.

Trying epical the research speeds was all to slow compared with the fast production speeds. Here production times should be made slower. Perhaps make a marathon speed too, so epical can be something in between.

Reply #5 Top

I don´t have a prob. with the pacing in generally.

But now with beta 4 on every ressource i build is in the queue. Before beta 4 it was only the ressource directly beside your city. That slows down city-development and building up military...

At the moment i don´t like that. But i haven´t played much. Maybe i only have to get used to it.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Lantros, reply 6
I don´t have a prob. with the pacing in generally.

But now with beta 4 on every ressource i build is in the queue. Before beta 4 it was only the ressource directly beside your city. That slows down city-development and building up military...

At the moment i don´t like that. But i haven´t played much. Maybe i only have to get used to it.
End of Lantros's quote

 

The intention is to make you have too choose. Earlier units, or getting those ressources early. You decide if you want to slow down the building of the new units. You can build them as early as before on the cost of getting the ressources later. It's great and give us more hard choices, I'm sure you like that.

Reply #7 Top

If we got a couple of military units at the start, then there would be more stuff to do and consider. 

 

 

Reply #8 Top

I agree that the slow movement is a major factor. I have always wanted more strategic movement for Champions to facilitate exploration and questing,  while armies have to move slower. I would like to see strategic movement doubled for Champions.

 

Right now, pioneer spam is the main pacing problem I see. The AI can and will throw out pioneers like crazy with no repercussions. Rapid expansion should be a choice that provides the advantage of securing more territory, at the cost of greatly slowed development. Wide vs. Tall.

Reply #9 Top


I don't agree. Pacing could be tweaked a little bit, but for me there is enough to do. Like others said. The beginning of the game is mainly for exploring with you sov and champ, finding loot and gaining levels. That's a design decision that makes this game different from eg Warlock: Master of the Arcane which has much more pacing in the beginning because of other design decisions.

About pioneer spam, I don't really have a huge problem with it. I expanded on par with the AI on challenging yesterday. It means that sometimes you have to take a bit of a chance with your pioneers. If the AI only expands when a pioneer is joined by a hero or military unit a human player would easily outrun them, so I don't have a problem with it.

Reply #10 Top

early pacing was fine for me in my first game on normal speed.  I like the RPG-like stuff before the empire building comes.  that said, maybe there could be a "quick start" option?

Reply #11 Top

Also want to point out that the new balance makes clubs very good in the early game. If you want an early army, some clubmen are now a great choice. Getting spears or shields will greatly increase the cost of production. Choosing warfare from the start is only a good idea for certain factions. If you think that is the best choice, try starting on a 3/4/1 and going for Civics and Knowledge first. The +1 Research is a godsend. The +1 Prestige from Civics is an immediate bonus, which will double your initial growth. Since the actual city level matters now, getting to level 2 fast is very important. 

Reply #12 Top

one way to help the explore part might be starting out with a talent or just plain free scout? I too feel scouting in the start of the game is pure pain due to slow, blind units, and all these forests and hills makes master scout really powerful for scouting...

Might wanna try to play "Tarth", meaby a version of Magnar where his faction have the Master scouts ability (Cheap slaves and more movement).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #13 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 12
The +1 Prestige from Civics is an immediate bonus, which will double your initial growth. Since the actual city level matters now, getting to level 2 fast is very important. 
End of seanw3's quote

Asking me, the +1 prestige in the civ tree is STILL and even more so a MUST research 1st tech... which is really sad.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #14 Top

Depends on which faction you choose. Gilden is better off sometimes with Battle Hammers to start. Some warlike factions are better off with spears first. It just depends on your starting location. If you are lucky and get a 3/4/1, go for spears and start leveling some armies. The gildar from killing is usually enough to support your economy for awhile. Magnar, for instance are better off getting spears and leather as the other guy said. You will level fast enough with those slaves to get way more than +1 Prestige. And since he doesn't get Wells or the upgrades, no reason to go after civics until much later.