Unity Mass - General Balancing discussion

from Sins Forums

First off it should be mentioned for fairness reasons that Unity mass never had a good chance of being loved because people were like on drugs after using the immense powerfull snipe abiliy on the Ragnarov.

 

And yet there are several reasons that make it do very poorly in combat:

 

Range: At a range of 6000, in a normal battle the enemy will have maxed out shield mitigation by the time it does hit. Even with a high level titan, the maximum possible damage is 2500 + 50 x 65 = 2500 + 3250 = 5750. This does sound like a lot but at this stage of the game it isnt. After shield mitigation that leaves about 2000 damage.... then comes shields and then comes armor... and so it makes barely a dent into anything. Not to mention that for such a low range you have to come quite close to the enemy, something you do not necessarly want.

 

Long cooldown: The power of snipe is not so much the damage but that you can basically chain fire it. With its comparable long coodown the low damage of Unity Mass becomes ridicolous little.

 

Lack of secondary effects: As it just does damage it will always be compared to snipe.... and it will and should be always inferior to that in terms of raw damage output.

A beam of such hatred would be expected to have a traumatic effect on the crew of the target, not just doing hull damage like some ordinary bullet or energy weapon. What about giving it something similar to Reverie as a secondary effect, lets say for 20 seconds or so?

 

Or it could penetrate shields... but I dont like that idea very much, this is more the Vasari theme.

 

More interesting imho would be to change the way nearby ships effect it. With a no ships arround it could stay on the current power levels, but with more ships and especially capital ships arround (a capital ship has more crew and so should do more charging up) it would become more and more powerful, on the highest level and with a very large fleet it should be truely devastating.

 

At least it should affect more ships... 50 ships is not much on the highest level.... you will usually have far more than that unless you have carriers... but with carriers I would stay far more away from the enemy than 6000....

 

 

 

There are several other issues with Advent Loyalists, but this topic should focus on unity mass.

 

Discuss! :grin:



13,132 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Siphon anti-matter from any target (including caps, starbases, and titans) and redistribute to any ships that contributed to the beam, provided they use anti-matter.  Like a disciple on steroids.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Advent Loyalists in general, I think, need a buff; I recall seeing several posts on that subject which summed it up better than I can.

If Advent Loyalists were given a more general buff, you'd have to consider a buff to Unity Mass within that context.

Personally, though, I agree that Unity Mass, as an ability that is comparable to Snipe, ought to be doing comparable damage or have a secondary effect.

When considering secondary effects, let's look at abilities that debuff targets (Advent [Loyalist] abilities are orange):

  • Corvette stacking debuffs:
    • Shriken (TEC Loyalist): Speed, acceleration, and turn rate reduced
    • Stilat (TEC Rebel): Damage taken increased
    • Acolyte (Advent Loyalist): Reduces chance to hit
    • Vespa (Advent Rebel): Energy weapon cooldown increased; antimatter regeneration reduced
    • Tosurak (Vasari Loyalist): Hull repair rate reduced
    • Sulsurak (Vasari Rebel): Shield regeneration rate reduced
  • Demolition Bots (Hoshikos): Attacks disabled; target moves slower
  • Demolition Team (Corsev): Target takes damage over time and joins your team if it dies under the effect
  • Designate Target (Cielo): Target takes 40% more damage
  • Detonate Antimatter (Radiance): abilities disabled; damage over time
  • Disruptive Strikes (Kortul Devastator): antimatter cost increased; passive
  • Distortion Field (Stilakus Subverter): ships disabled; channeled; AOE
  • Fracture (Discord): Reduces armor; AOE
  • Gravity Pulse (Kultorask): Ships disabled; AOE
  • Gravity Warhead (Jarrasul Evacuator): Speed and acceleration reduced; phase jump disabled; AOE
  • Incendiary Shells (Marza): Damage over time; passive
  • Inertial Field (Skarovas Enforcer): Speed and acceleration reduced; passive; AOE
  • Interference (Ravastra Skirmisher): Ability cost and cooldown increased
  • Ion Bolt (Akkan): Target disabled
  • Jam Weapons (Kortul Devastator): Strike craft attacks disabled; AOE
  • Lethargy (Discord): Ability and weapon cooldown period increased; AOE
  • Magnetize (Dunov): Abilities disabled
  • Malice (Progenitor): Damage propagates to affected targets; AOE
  • Nano-Disassembler (Jarrasul Evacuator): Target takes damage over time; target armor reduced
  • Nano Leech (Kultorask): Target takes damage over time and loses antimatter over time; AOE
  • Phase Out Hull (Antorak Marauder): Target disabled and invulnerable
  • Reverie (Revelation): Target disabled (channeled?)
  • Sabotage Reactor (Cobalt); Abilities are disabled after next ability is used
  • Shield Disruption (Stilakus Subverter): Shield mitigation reduced; target becomes more vulnerable to phase missiles
  • Suppression (Domina Subjugator): Target disabled
  • Suppression Aura (Coronata): Reduces damage and speed; AOE; passive
  • Vertigo (Rapture): Weapon cooldown period increased; weapon chance to hit reduced; AOE

So, if you look at this list, any Advent Loyalist can have the following debuffs on hand at any time:

  • Reduced chance for target to hit
  • Disable a single target's abilities
  • Reduce armor
  • Ability and weapon cooldown increase
  • Damage propagation
  • Disable a single target
  • Damage and speed reduction
  • Weapon cooldown reduction and chance to hit reduction

Any side effect of Unity Mass should probably not duplicate these effects!

In addition, the ability should probably fill a niche within the Advent that is missing but also appropriate, both for the Advent and for the ability.

The ability is designed to do single-target damage. both to capital ships and to structures. Consequently, a "disable target" side effect would be obnoxious (like Ion Bolt, but with damage >.<). Likewise, a debuff to the target's defenses would be largely wasted, since the weapon fires so slowly.

The Advent has damage output reducing abilities in SPADES, so this would be redundant.

Consequently, having the ability ignore shield mitigation might work (since it's a beam of hate and really shouldn't be affected by shields at all), but this might very well be too powerful.

More agreeably, having the beam disable abilities or do damage to antimatter would fit its role in taking on large targets.

That's all I have for the moment.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Umm..  Large targets (aka capitals and titans) rely on AM for a huge chunk of their power so removing AM, as I have done in RR is actually quite powerful.

Also, I'm not a fan of giving it an AoE to nearby targets.  The idea is that you focus the hatred towards of all nearby ships towards a race on one single target.  To make it an AoE would be to uproot this and personally I don't want to change this.

Ultimately, it's effectively psychic focus-firing, so take that as you will.

Oh, and people shouldn't forget that UM deals more damage than Snipe.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

@Volt:

For once, I've suggested something you already implemented. I feel smarter! :grin:

Edit:

That said, I believe UM deals LESS damage than Snipe.

Sins of a Solar Empire Wiki says Snipe does 1200 ----> 2600 damage, doubled by Overcharge, every 11 ----> 8 seconds.

By comparison, UM does 1000 ----> 2500 damage, buffed by a maximum of 1000 ----> 3250, every 25 seconds.

Even under favorable circumstances (max number of ships nearby), UM only does 230 DPS at max level; even without Overcharge, Snipe does 320.

So, yeah, the cooldown is a killer. Needs love compared to Snipe. =)

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Snipe does up to 2600 normal, 5200 overcharged.

UM does up to 2500 to start off with plus up to 65 damage for up to 50 nearby allies, so at maximum, 5750.

Last time I checked, 5750 > 5200.

And for such high damage abilities, DPS isn't even that relevant because depending on initial health and mitigation, you can kill your target outright (or at minimum, blast away their shields and a good chunk of their hull if they aren't a titan or SB).

 

EDIT: and for the record, Overcharge has a 60/40 second cooldown and Snipe/Overcharge uses significantly more AM than UM.

EDIT 2: And just to clarify, I'm not saying that UM shouldn't be changed.  I'm just saying that since Snipe got nerfed, UM's standing with it is actually quite good.  At this point it's almost a point of not liking a raw single-target damage ability on the Advent, but maybe that's just me..

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Chaining damage!  Chaining damage!  Chaining damage!  Chaining damage!  Chaining damage!

 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

and don't forget that unity mass is not omni directional, which actually sucks as you have to be in range (which gets you focused fired) and you have to be facing the target so if you need to retreat your most powerful weapon is now offline

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Sel, read my first post again.

 

Phoenix, neither is Snipe.  Snipe is just able to engage from accross the gravity well.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9
Sel, read my first post again.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

You of all people in this thread should know not to take me seriously when I say that...

You want me to be serious though?  Here, I'll be dead serious:

THE CORONATA DOES NOT NEED A BUFF OF ANY KIND

I had a whole explanation behind that, but then I decided to edit it cause it sounded a bit mean and I didn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt...

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9
Sel, read my first post again.

 

Phoenix, neither is Snipe.  Snipe is just able to engage from accross the gravity well.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

 

Well it makes sense that snipe isn't, the ragnarov is a huge rail gun and would have to face forward, the halo on the coronata should be able to fire unity mass while the titan is facing away from you at least

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

I really should have just left my original post....unity mass does NOT need to be easier to use, it is already very powerful (it just turns out snipe is more powerful)....you have to keep in mind that the coronata is much harder to kill than the ragnarov, Advent can protect their titan much better from frigates and SC than TEC can....

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

I think it's also worth mentioning that the Coronata comes with Suppression as a passive ability - and an amazing one at that - so it's going to have more AM to use Unity Mass more often. It's also a Titan that by design is supposed to have a big fleet with it, buffing Unity Mass more. It needs more babysitting out of the gate than other Titans but competes just as well with a few levels on it. AL need buffs in more pressing areas than their Titan...I am surprised about the cooldowns of Snipe vs. UM though - 8 seconds is insane! I thought UM was better than 25 but apparently not. For its relatively low AM cost, if you just have UM as your only active ability, and if the cool down was buffed, that could be a substitute for this idea of chain damage. ZZZzzzaaaPP-ZZZzzzaaaPP-ZZZzzzaaaPP! Anyone know how much the cool down is reduced with each point you put into it?

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Sel, I figured you were vaguely serious, liking your idea of chaining damage but saying so in a joking manner.  I did read your original post and found it fine honestly.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Well I'm serious in that I want to see it happen in a mod and I think it is cool, and so I'm just going to keep asking for it because I can, and because force lighting on a fleet scale is a lot cooler then nyan engine trails on the kol...

That being said, giving advent a powerful focus firing ability instantly made them best fleet....seriously, if AL had anything else really useful, you'd see them played a hell of a lot more...

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Damage test - Unity Mass VS Snipe

Result: Unity Mass is in fact more powerful troughout most of the game. Only when the Ragnarov hits level 6 it becomes more deadly. I am the first to admit that I am surprised by that. The Ragnarov hides the relative weakness of Snipe quite well, as it dishes out tremendous damage even without it.

 

Testing was done with the Dev.exe. Notice that this is only the damage of the ability itself. No other weapons were fired, all squadrons were docked. Target was a level 1 Kol with Adaptive Forcefields. The time written is the time needed for the ability alone to destroy that ship.

 

 

Unity Mass:

Without ships:

Level 1 Coronata: 09:38

Level 6 Coronata: 03:19

Level 10 Coronata:2:52


With Ships (I used Aerias, so this is still only the damage of Unity Mass and nothing else)

Level 1 Coronata: 08:02

Level 6 Coronata: 03:14

Level 10 Coronata: 1:36



Snipe:

When autoattack is disabled, the Ragnarov wont autocast snipe, unlike the Coronata does with Unity Mass. Henceforth I had to use snipe manually. That does result in a delay when compared to autocast. So I have added the actual time needed as well as the time I guessed that was lost for me doing it manually.

 


Level 1 Ravnarov: 13:18 - 1 minute manual delay = 12:18

Level 6 Ragnarov: 1:15 - 15 seconds manual delay = 1:00

Level 10 Ragnarov: 0:50 - 5 seconds manual delay = 0:45

 

Overcharge does indeed consume antimatter, although that is usally not much of a problem. A few snipes and overcharged snipes will destroy most things long before the Titan runs out of antimatter. The result of this test does also show that the Ragnarov is the titan that looses the least of danger when depleted of antimatter.

 

 

Quoting phoenixst8r, reply 8
and don't forget that unity mass is not omni directional, which actually sucks as you have to be in range (which gets you focused fired) and you have to be facing the target so if you need to retreat your most powerful weapon is now offline
End of phoenixst8r's quote

Have you taken a close look at the coronata? That construction on top of it leaves little room for a larger attack vector. At most I would agree for it to fire 180 degree behind it, but thats as much as it gets.

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 10

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9Sel, read my first post again.

You of all people in this thread should know not to take me seriously when I say that...

You want me to be serious though?  Here, I'll be dead serious:

THE CORONATA DOES NOT NEED A BUFF OF ANY KIND

I had a whole explanation behind that, but then I decided to edit it cause it sounded a bit mean and I didn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt...
End of Seleuceia's quote

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 12
I really should have just left my original post....unity mass does NOT need to be easier to use, it is already very powerful (it just turns out snipe is more powerful)....you have to keep in mind that the coronata is much harder to kill than the ragnarov, Advent can protect their titan much better from frigates and SC than TEC can....
End of Seleuceia's quote

 

Yes, you should have. It was a fabulous post. :thumbsup: So here lets see it again:

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 10

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9Sel, read my first post again.

You of all people in this thread should know not to take me seriously when I say that...

You want me to be serious though?  Here, I'll be dead serious:

I've have said many times in the past and will say again that Advent Loyalist with a mid/high level titan is most powerful fleet in game, and is virtually impossible to kill...THE CORONOTA DOES NOT NEED A BUFF OF ANY KIND...

Sure, the AL and the coronota may seem lame but I assure you that is merely due to a lack of diversity, not a lack of fleet power...they don't have the "macro" options of the other factions (like SttC, wail, double RB, etc.) but they most certainly have the best fleet...as soon as you get your coronota, support it with 50, 80, 100 illuminators and you are in fantastic shape...corvettes and HCs coming at you?  Illuminators eat corvettes for breakfast, and those HCs will love being repulsed by guardians...uh oh, is that a bomber spam I see coming?  Just spam the best fighters in the game, problem solved...if things get really bad, I guess you could also add in the best flak ship or the best carrier cap for dealing with SC...and if your enemy is really dumb and just builds carriers, guess who also has best LF with best ability to hunt them down?

There is a reason why Advent did not and should not have good focus firing capability...but now they do, and you want to buff it?

I have seen several skilled players completely crush multiple fleets thrown against even a low level coronata with illuminator spam...you can't use corvettes against illuminators, and LRFs or HCs will fail to do much because of suppression, a passive ability you get simply for existing...only the Coronata and Ragnarov have both good AoE and FFing abilities, putting both of them in their own seperate tier...yes the Coronota requires a fleet, but it's the best fleet so that's hardly a drawback...

Just because unity mass isn't as good as snipe doesn't mean it needs a buff...want to help AL, do something other than buff the coronata, like spawning culture everytime a ship dies or whatever...in fact, Unity Mass is the only "just does massive damage" ability that is actually interesting...snipe, chastic burst, missile barrage, BORING....Unity mass requires a fleet, the ability is fine, it is more than just "more damage"....


THE CORONATA DOES NOT NEED A BUFF OF ANY KIND

I had a whole explanation behind that, but then I decided to edit it cause it sounded a bit mean and I didn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt...

End of Seleuceia's quote

 

What I dont get though is why that is a strength of the Advent Loyalists? You can build the same fleet with Advent Rebels.

 

Surpression aura is certainly powerful but will it make you win a fight that the Advent Rebels with the Eradica would have lost?

 

And to the topic of chaining damage, well it would certainly look cool but seing that Unity mass is on average more powerful than snipe and considering that there are already many powerful AoE abilities for Advent, I am not sure.

 

EDIT: Dont forget that TEC have many nice armor upgrades that make the Ragnarov quite durable, even on the lower levels.