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Camera Zoom Level - Why is it reduced?

Camera Zoom Level - Why is it reduced?

As I played the beta yesterday, I noticed that it isn't possible to zoom towards ships, or planets as much as you were able to in Trinity. Why is this? Why would you disable some feature such as this? I always enjoyed the details of the ships and I was quite often at the maximum zoom-level. Will the camera stay 'locked' in the final version of the game as well or is this something that'll be fixed eventually?  :\

13,509 views 38 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Thoumsin, reply 25

BS... again someone who propagate myth !!!

At the hardware level, since the pentium Pro from 1995 ( http://download.intel.com/design/archives/processors/pro/docs/24269001.pdf, page 21, section bus description : 64 bit data, 36 bit address ), computer are 36 bits, good for a max of 64gb of physical memory... simply look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension#Microsoft_Windows , by example the physical limit of windows 2000 32 bit datacenter edition... cute, 32gb limit for physical ram on 32 bit hardware ( in fact 36 bit hardware )...

The thing who really limit your to 2gb application and 2gb OS on windows 32bit desktop OS is the Microsoft licensing system... more you pay, more ram you can use... it is the same with the recent win7 on 64 bit... win7 x64 home edition is limited to 8 gb, home premium x64 to 16gb, win7 pro/ent/ult x64 to 192gb... need to use windows x64 server version for reach the 2TB...
End of Thoumsin's quote

I will take your word for it, but I was using the knowledge I had at the moment. The real question is why I did not learn that in my OS class? (Or did I just forget?)

Edit: Either way, I feel terrible about giving information that turned out to be false.

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Thoumsin, reply 10
... a .dds texture already contain all the lod level ( mipmapping ), using the full quality or the lower quality mipmap don't change anything about main memory use...
End of Thoumsin's quote

This reminded me of the savings that Major Stress et al made with the Sins Optimization Project when they switched from TGA textures to DDS.

In the Rebellion directory there are still quite a few (372) TGAs, while there are 795 DDS textures.

Could memory be saved by converting the remaining TGAs to DDS?

Reply #28 Top

For those of us who have intense gaming rigs and aren't worried about texture memory is it possible to have the max zoom level adjusted? an option in the "video" category perhaps?

Reply #29 Top

It doesn't matter if your game rig is "intense"--Sins is limited to the memory constraints of  the 32-bit OS and once it hits 2gb usage you run out of awesome.

Reply #30 Top

DDS is a compressed texture where TGA is not. Uncompressed a DDS texture uses the same amount of memory as a TGA texture. However, DDS is a lot more efficient than TGA. DDS uses mip maps where a TGA does not. TGA "looks" better, and is a better quality texture, but TGA is OLD technology (vintage 1989). Here is a full summery on TGA format http://www.fileformat.info/format/tga/egff.htm. Here is a summery of DDS format for comparison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectDraw_Surface

When you convert TGA to DDS the DDS texture will suffer some loss in quality. The average person will not notice this loss, but really nit picky people will notice a difference, and even i noticed the loss in quality when it was pointed out to me.

DDS is a smaller texture size "stored" than TGA, because it is a compressed texture.

The main benefit IMO for DDS format are the Mip Maps. Which is also the main reason why we used all DDS format in TSOP. The majority of Sins particle textures are in TGA format. TGA format does not scale down when you change graphics options. TGA remains the same resolution no matter if you chose high, medium, or low settings. TGA will use the same "video memory" if you chose high, medium, or low settings.

DDS on the other hand WILL scale down using the graphic options, or just by zooming out. The mip maps act as level of detail textures when you zoom out. Increasing your Graphic Performance. It works even with the particles. Particle textures in DDS format WILL scale down with the options and by zooming just as the ship textures do. When we replaced the TGA textures in TSOP with DDS textures there was a tremendous increase in "graphic performance".

The major RAM savings happened in TSOP when we "strategically" reduced the resolution of some of the particle textures. IMO there was absolutely no reason for a particle seen in game as no more than a "dot", or a "blob" to have a 256, or 512 resolution texture. So we reduced those big textures by half, or more. It all depended on how it looked in game. The goal with TSOP was to make it look like nothing was changed at all. If there was a major visual difference in game then we left that particular texture alone, but still converted it to DDS format. THAT is where the real ram savings came from in TSOP. Plus reducing the resolution of the starbase, fighter, mine, construction, and trade ship textures.

The whole point of TSOP was to help prevent Original Sins, Entrenchment, and later Diplomacy from hitting the 2 gig brick wall. We must have done some things right. The dev's incorporated some of TSOP into the latest Diplomacy patches, and are using some "TSOP Like" optimizations in Rebellion (like removing the top mip levels on small ships).

Reply #31 Top

Use our ram. Seriously, i have 16gb doing nothing. 

Reply #32 Top

Quoting ThanatosDMC, reply 31
Use our ram. Seriously, i have 16gb doing nothing. 
End of ThanatosDMC's quote

 

*sigh* ... -_-

 

The developers have said over and over and over and over and over and over and occasionally, over again that they will not upgrade the 32-bit engine to 64-bit as the resources required to do so would not be economically viable at this point in time. If it does not get upgraded to 64-bit it can not properly utilized more than 2gb on a standard windows machine. At this point, someone will jump in with LAA this! or LAA that!! which also ... has been discussed forever and ever and ever and ever and sometimes even for just a little bit longer than forever some more ...

 

Maybe I'm cynical but I really don't want to have to wade through all of those arguments again when there thousands of threads that discuss that particular issue.

 

I just want them to allow the camera to zoom in a bit closer even if the graphics don't look nearly as good. At the very least I'd like them to make it so you can click on other nearby ships when zoomed into a capital ship. Right now, the 'bubble' prevents that.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Sinperium, reply 29
It doesn't matter if your game rig is "intense"--Sins is limited to the memory constraints of  the 32-bit OS and once it hits 2gb usage you run out of awesome.
End of Sinperium's quote

 

Bah! Screw stability! I want mah fancy screenshots!  :D

Reply #34 Top

So, I figure I might as well reply since I just read all these posts. 

It is possible to address more than 4gb of RAM on a 32-bit OS using some trickery, and MS allowed it for a short while in the consumer space. (they still allow it in the corporate world) 

However, they quickly removed this feature as a majority of drivers were not written with this "trickery" in mind and caused several crashes/BSOD.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting k1DBLITZ, reply 34
So, I figure I might as well reply since I just read all these posts. 

It is possible to address more than 4gb of RAM on a 32-bit OS using some trickery, and MS allowed it for a short while in the consumer space. (they still allow it in the corporate world) 

However, they quickly removed this feature as a majority of drivers were not written with this "trickery" in mind and caused several crashes/BSOD.
End of k1DBLITZ's quote

 

Yes, but most gaming computers nowadays use this new-fangled 64-bit technology, allowing for more than 2gb of RAM per program... My copy of Skyrim routinely peaks at over 3.5gb!

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Major, reply 30
DDS is a smaller texture size "stored" than TGA, because it is a compressed texture.
End of Major's quote

Have just test the Titan TEC textures... the .TGA version ( without loss of quality ) are a few mb smaller that the .dds version ( with loss of quality )... by the way, TGA RLE is with a lossless compression... problem with tga rle is that you cannot be sure if the file will be smaller or bigger that with .dds... need to test each texture...

Reply #37 Top

For those of you who wish to get up close and personal with your ships to get a good eyeful of their textures, you can simply zoom in to a single strike craft, which allows you to get much closer than, say, a Titan.

Once you've achieved the maximum zoom on the strike craft, use the arrow keys to move your camera towards the ship you want to get a good look at.

Using this I managed to go "fly" around inside the Akylon, entered the barrel of the Ragnarov, etc...

Reply #38 Top

Quoting k1DBLITZ, reply 34
So, I figure I might as well reply since I just read all these posts.

It is possible to address more than 4gb of RAM on a 32-bit OS...
End of k1DBLITZ's quote

 

If you read all of these posts, you must not have read them very well ... This is NOT the topic to discuss LAA there are a MULTITUDE of threads that discuss the ins and outs of this. Please discuss this situation (which has been discussed to death. You do not have any 'new' information that has not already been talked about in one of those threads) elsewhere.

 

Quoting Thoumsin, reply 36
Have just test the Titan TEC textures... the .TGA version ( without loss of quality ) are a few mb smaller that the .dds version ( with loss of quality )... by the way, TGA RLE is with a lossless compression... problem with tga rle is that you cannot be sure if the file will be smaller or bigger that with .dds... need to test each texture...
End of Thoumsin's quote

Thoumsin, I'm sure Major Stress can link the discussion thread where .DDS was compared to .TGA and the testing methods that the group used to determine their system load, savings, etc and the differences between them. I believe they were able to source literature to back up different statements as well. If he is unable to post the link I could dig around and try and find it but I believe many of the questions related to the .DDS and .TGA issue that you may have could likely be found answered there.

 

Quoting Pat_22_, reply 37
For those of you who wish to get up close and personal with your ships to get a good eyeful of their textures, you can simply zoom in to a single strike craft, which allows you to get much closer than, say, a Titan.

Once you've achieved the maximum zoom on the strike craft, use the arrow keys to move your camera towards the ship you want to get a good look at.
End of Pat_22_'s quote

Pat_22_ that is what we are currently doing with Rebellion right now. For ships that are not static (i.e chasing ships or repositioning themselves, or for fighter craft) at all times it is difficult to follow a ship through the combat using this technique. We used to be able to zoom in a bit closer in Sins of a Solar Empire, Entrenchment & Diplomacy (Trinity) which really brought the sense of scale between fighters / frigates compared to capital ships into focus. It was pretty epic. This just looks different.