A little nervous...

I haven't been around these forums as long as others, so I am hoping you guys can put my mind at ease.

Reading about Elemental: Fallen Enchantress ("FE") is giving me pause, because I am under the impression that FE will be stand-alone and will not integrate in to Elemental: War of Magic ("WoM").  WoM feels woefully incomplete, from the campaign that can only be considered a tutortial in terms of difficulty to the various game stopping bugs, and I am afraid that once FE releases that WoM will not get the much needed attention that it requires.

I understand that I would recieve a discounted price for FE since I had purchased WoM, but I don't want to spend any money on FE if it would pull resources from WoE, a game that I was anticipating for quite a while.  I have a feeling that WoM will get abandoned... please put my mind at ease.

22,312 views 35 replies
Reply #1 Top

I have similiar feelings.

Reply #2 Top

If you bought WoM in 2010, you should get FE free. So in that sense it won't matter because it won't cost you more money to get the new version.

They've said that WoM will still be supported alongside FE. TBH, I don't believe it. I believe that they honestly have that intention, but it's not going to last in the face of the reality that FE will probably be the better game and will be the one that gets marketing attention (if they do a marketing push).

Once they diverge significantly it'll take resources to backport changes if they even can be backported, and it just won't make a lot of sense financially to spend resources on that which could be spent improving FE.

Reply #3 Top

I think the only support that WoM will get is that it is based on the same engine (at least partially). So, any bug fixes in FE will propagate to WoM. But I do not expect things like balancing or gameplay changes in WoM.

Reply #4 Top

As I understand it, Derek, Jon S, and pretty much the rest of the crew are concentrating on FE while Brad and a couple hand picked cronies continue to tinker away with WoM. I believe that WoM will continue to see improvements, but not at the rate FE will. Not only that, but if people start abandoning WoM for FE en mass, I get the feeling not a lot is going to be done with WoM. In other words, it all depends. I would like to see a WoM 2.0 where all the rough spots are ironed out and the game just draws you in with its depth and detail, but no idea if that will actually happen. Remember that they have to fix the game they have, not build a new one. In any case, as long as FE is awesome I won't have any complaints.

Oh yeah, and WoM 1.3 will be released before FE (1.3 is where there's supposed to be a bunch of new changes unveiling the new direction of WoM), so we will probably know by then based on how well received 1.3 is. I have no objection whatsoever about there being 2 awesome Elemental games. I'm rooting for both of them, there's enough talent and resources to make it all happen... just not a lot of precedence.

Reply #5 Top

I am trying to figure out what is bothering me and I think I have figured it out.  If support does wane for WoM, then how much confidence should I have in FE?  If they view the product as a failure, then why should I view WoM or FE any different from them?  I am getting a little depressed now.  I feel that I am being forced to repurchase the same game.

If you bought WoM in 2010, you should get FE free. So in that sense it won't matter because it won't cost you more money to get the new version.

Unfortunately, I got my software just a couple days ago.  It would be fantastic of Stardock to offer a heavy discount (75% off would keep my idealist view of Stardock and the Elemental IP, but I know it won't happen).  I would really consider offering FE to all who purchase WoM before the release of FE.  Just because someone purchased it in 2011, does not make the product any less broken.

Reply #6 Top
1. War of magic is not broken. No g ame is all things to all people. if someone is unhappy with it at this stage I feel bad about that but that isn't the same as the game being incomplete in some way. Heck, galciv and sins dont even have campaigns. Wom's was meant as an introduction to the world. Fe will bring more. 2. It will continue to get significant updates for the foreseeable future, particularly in v1.3 3. Galciv only had 3 devs on it too. Keep that in mind before dismissing what 3 devs on wom can do.
Reply #7 Top

Quoting EchoingZen, reply 5
It would be fantastic of Stardock to offer a heavy discount (75% off would keep my idealist view of Stardock and the Elemental IP, but I know it won't happen).  I would really consider offering FE to all who purchase WoM before the release of FE.  Just because someone purchased it in 2011, does not make the product any less broken.
End of EchoingZen's quote

Purchasing WoM in 2011, but before FE comes out, does get you a discount on FE, but I can't say how big of one. Considering I paid $50 for WoM I'm hoping it's 60%+, to be honest.

 

Reply #8 Top

It is an honor to get a reply from Frogboy, though I must disagree that WoM is not broken.  The system requirements for the game states that Windows 7 is needed, and one of the essential functions of Windows is the ability to hit Alt-Tab in order to switch applications.  When you attempt this with WoE, the game either takes an enormous amout of time to load, or will crash all together.  This has been reported with multiple users.  In addition to this, a Google search for "Elemental 1.19 bugs" displays a list of other bugs/issues.

The term broken was perhaps incorrect.  Perhaps the phrase "lacking polish" would be better, if not more diplomatic.  I love what Stardock has been doing, from giving insight on the development process to giving a discount to those lucky souls who purchased WoE in 2010.  Truth be told, I will most likely purchase FE anyways, but "lacking polish" is something that has been a plague to modern day games.  Please don't take my thread as anything but venting and giving my feelings.  I really hope you guys make Elemental an enduring product! :D

*squeals like a little girl because the great Frogboy replied to his thread*

Reply #9 Top

Quoting EchoingZen, reply 5
I am trying to figure out what is bothering me and I think I have figured it out.  If support does wane for WoM, then how much confidence should I have in FE?  If they view the product as a failure, then why should I view WoM or FE any different from them?  I am getting a little depressed now.  I feel that I am being forced to repurchase the same game.
End of EchoingZen's quote

I look at FE as Elemental's "2.0" update. It's a chance to take more time and make more drastic changes then could be made otherwise, and it's also a chance to get some sites to do re-reviews because it's a new release rather then a patch. That's just the market reality right now, such things matter.

The goal is to wind up with a good game, and this is an unfortunate but necessary break from the past in order to get there.

Unfortunately, I got my software just a couple days ago.  It would be fantastic of Stardock to offer a heavy discount (75% off would keep my idealist view of Stardock and the Elemental IP, but I know it won't happen).  I would really consider offering FE to all who purchase WoM before the release of FE.  Just because someone purchased it in 2011, does not make the product any less broken.
End of quote

75% is probably unrealistically high, but as mentioned I do believe they're planning some kind of discount for WoM owners who don't qualify for the free upgrade. Obviously that's not what you're looking for, but it also beats the industry norm by quite a bit in these situations.

Reply #10 Top

I would have told you to just wait for FE. I've said it once and i'll say it again. Original game vs Standalone expansion your usually better off just going with the stand alone. :grin:

Reply #11 Top

Quoting EchoingZen, reply 8
It is an honor to get a reply from Frogboy, though I must disagree that WoM is not broken.  The system requirements for the game states that Windows 7 is needed, and one of the essential functions of Windows is the ability to hit Alt-Tab in order to switch applications.  When you attempt this with WoE, the game either takes an enormous amout of time to load, or will crash all together.  This has been reported with multiple users.  In addition to this, a Google search for "Elemental 1.19 bugs" displays a list of other bugs/issues.

The term broken was perhaps incorrect.  Perhaps the phrase "lacking polish" would be better, if not more diplomatic.  I love what Stardock has been doing, from giving insight on the development process to giving a discount to those lucky souls who purchased WoE in 2010.  Truth be told, I will most likely purchase FE anyways, but "lacking polish" is something that has been a plague to modern day games.  Please don't take my thread as anything but venting and giving my feelings.  I really hope you guys make Elemental an enduring product! 

*squeals like a little girl because the great Frogboy replied to his thread*
End of EchoingZen's quote

I agree that WoM is not broken. It could be called broken when it was released, but underneath all the broken-ness was a game that was decidedly hmmm lackluster. Since 1.1 I haven't had any real issues with crashes, just a few here and there. For me the playing experience hasn't changed a lot since in spite of several updates, mainly geared towards stability with a few minor tweaks. So if it sounds like I'm still waiting for WoM to be fixed, well in a way I am but from a gameplay perspective. It's like when superman lost his powers to kryptonite, he wasn't broken per say but he wasn't superman anymore. I want WoM to be superman, not some ordinary guy dressed in tights. In spite of my criticism, I'm here because I care. I wouldn't come to this forum day after day just to bash on Elemental. I really want SD to take the red pill though, take the blue pill and wake up in a world where WoM is complete, it's a great game, but there's always a few detractors. Take the red pill and see how far it really needs to go.

PS a three man dev team is wicked. But comparing WoM to GalCiv at this point is unfair. :)

Reply #12 Top

WoM is far from broken. It may be a little bland right now but that's not nearly the same thing as broken. It looks like WoM will get 1 or 2 more content patches after FE and then still probably some more bug and backward features from Fe after that. Honestly I get the impression that FE exists simpley because of engine limits in WoM. They had to go with a stand alone to really bring Elemental to it's potential.

Reply #13 Top

I have an optimistic feeling there will be a rash of content improvements the second they get the engine problems (OOM) worked out. The more solid documentation we can give them (such as debug files, saves, dumps, print screens) should help speed up the process. I'm posting threads and then linking to them via the main change log thread to ensure Brad, Derek, and CodeCritter see them (sorry Code, don't know your RL name). lol

Reply #14 Top

Hi Echo,

I'm not familiar with Alt-Tab and such being a problem these days. I rely on that feature on a daily basis when I work on the game. If there's some compatibility issue, you might just want to try running it windowed.

Regarding polish, that's really too subjective for me to get in. You'll never get a TBS game like this to be as polished as say Starcraft 2 or what have you.  It's the price we pay for having a game this relatively complex in a relatively niche genre.  

We have a lot of things we're going to be adding to WOM over the next few months.

Here's a brief list:

  • A lot of new goodie huts
  • Random events
  • Essence returned as a limiting factor on how many heroes you can imbue (where essence remains something good for you)
  • More variance in monsters in the world
  • More interesting world generation at start
  • More (a lot more) emphasis on missile weapons (i.e. lots more bandits with bows and such)
  • Minimum trained unit will be 4 (not 1)
  • Items that are made up of other items (forging)
  • Ability to find "plans" that let you build better items (via forging)

The ones that make sense for FE will likely make it in there too. But this is the direction we're looking to take WOM in.

 

Reply #15 Top

Sweet, thanks Brad. Looking forward to it!

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14
More (a lot more) emphasis on missile weapons (i.e. lots more bandits with bows and such)
End of Frogboy's quote

Doh! This is going to make my "explore with ungeared champions and flee from every battle" tactic alot more dangerous!

Reply #17 Top

Hey frog :frogboy: , make it also 'enemies with much less than hudreds hit points!'

As it is now, before you kill a unit you need to (slooooowlyyy) hit him 40+ times, and since in the end the unit with the higher defense is pretty much sure to win from the beginning , all that is just boring!

But of course as long as you figured out another fun battle sytem, that's OK too...

 

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14


Here's a brief list:


A lot of new goodie huts
Random events
Essence returned as a limiting factor on how many heroes you can imbue (where essence remains something good for you)
More variance in monsters in the world
More interesting world generation at start
More (a lot more) emphasis on missile weapons (i.e. lots more bandits with bows and such)
Minimum trained unit will be 4 (not 1)
Items that are made up of other items (forging)
Ability to find "plans" that let you build better items (via forging)

The ones that make sense for FE will likely make it in there too. But this is the direction we're looking to take WOM in.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

As awesome as all those things sounds, the thing I'm most excited about is actually the 4-man unit minimum since that is one of those small things that will vastly improve tactical gameplay, and give a lot more room to make champions feel more than just your average soldier WITHOUT making them overpowered..

Reply #19 Top

The ones that make sense for FE will likely make it in there too. But this is the direction we're looking to take WOM in.
End of quote

Ah, I was wondering about that.

 

Reply #20 Top

While my nervous feelings haven't really subsided, I will say that the four unit minimum would do wonders for game play.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 18

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14

Here's a brief list:


A lot of new goodie huts
Random events
Essence returned as a limiting factor on how many heroes you can imbue (where essence remains something good for you)
More variance in monsters in the world
More interesting world generation at start
More (a lot more) emphasis on missile weapons (i.e. lots more bandits with bows and such)
Minimum trained unit will be 4 (not 1)
Items that are made up of other items (forging)
Ability to find "plans" that let you build better items (via forging)

The ones that make sense for FE will likely make it in there too. But this is the direction we're looking to take WOM in.

 
As awesome as all those things sounds, the thing I'm most excited about is actually the 4-man unit minimum since that is one of those small things that will vastly improve tactical gameplay, and give a lot more room to make champions feel more than just your average soldier WITHOUT making them overpowered..
End of Heavenfall's quote

 

I agree.  This is why v1.2 is so important -- though boring -- because it opens the door for letting people have much larger armies.

I'm going to be eliminating the requirement for special buildings to build companies and archers and such because, as a practical matter, it just railraods players into taking the path of least resistance. Hence, you almost never see calvalry and such because it's too much work.

Now, FE has a totally different combat system with damage types, defense types, attack types, etc.  I haven't come up with a straight forward way to make combat in WOM more strategic without rewriting the combat system.  I was hping that attack speeds would do the trick but they don't.

 

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14
Hi Echo,

I'm not familiar with Alt-Tab and such being a problem these days. I rely on that feature on a daily basis when I work on the game. If there's some compatibility issue, you might just want to try running it windowed.

Regarding polish, that's really too subjective for me to get in. You'll never get a TBS game like this to be as polished as say Starcraft 2 or what have you.  It's the price we pay for having a game this relatively complex in a relatively niche genre.  

We have a lot of things we're going to be adding to WOM over the next few months.

Here's a brief list:


A lot of new goodie huts
Random events
Essence returned as a limiting factor on how many heroes you can imbue (where essence remains something good for you)
More variance in monsters in the world
More interesting world generation at start
More (a lot more) emphasis on missile weapons (i.e. lots more bandits with bows and such)
Minimum trained unit will be 4 (not 1)
Items that are made up of other items (forging)
Ability to find "plans" that let you build better items (via forging)

The ones that make sense for FE will likely make it in there too. But this is the direction we're looking to take WOM in.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

In keeping with this thread's title, the fact that the AI is mentioned nowhere in that list leaves me nervous.

Reply #23 Top

On reworking the combat system would some simple special abilities help?

 

Make spearmen (and you need more spears) have a special ability to set charge, and do extra damage to cavalry and negate first strike.

Make cavalry have a charge ability to do one attack at massive damage

Make a rock paper scissor relationship between melee units.

 

Stuff like this could add to the depth some, provided the AI can handle it in quick  tactical combat.

 

Let the AI use spells in quick combat intelligently (this will be tough to do AI-wise)

Reply #24 Top

Now, FE has a totally different combat system with damage types, defense types, attack types, etc. I haven't come up with a straight forward way to make combat in WOM more strategic without rewriting the combat system. I was hping that attack speeds would do the trick but they don't.
End of quote

Hm... with the limitations of the current combat system... very hard indeed.

The only thing I can think of is the addition of special abilities to equipment, like some mods did. Though this isn't such a great solution, since it makes combat very micro heavy.

There are 4 stats which define an unit in battle:

  • Attack
  • Defense
  • HP
  • Action Points which define nr of attacks per turn and movement

Thus we have a system, where more in any of those 4 stats is always better and the first 2 are of supreme importance. Imo, there is nothing you can do with only those 4 stats which make combat strategic in any way. The current system means, bigger numbers always win.

 

You could do some stuff with special abilities tied to equipment though. Simple example:

  • Staves, low attack value, significant defense penalty, adds a heal ability to that unit
  • Bows, normal attack, significant defense penalty, adds a suppressing fire ability that lowers an units action points by half
  • Mounts, adds a charge ability that doubles that units action points
  • Shields, adds a defense ability that doubles that units hp temporary, but removes all its action points
  • Hammers, adds a strike ability that halves an enemy units defense, stackable
  • Swords, adds a berserk ability that does very high damage but lowers defense of the unit using this ability
  • Axes, normal attack value, significant defense penalty, adds a break ability that halves an enemy units attack, stackable

Ie. some abilities per equipment type, with significant power.

Ideally, combat then would play like this. You engage an enemy troop. Your bow troops would use supressing fire on the enemy cavalry to negate their charge so they can't outmanoeuvre you, a very high armoured enemy unit would be swarmed by hammer guys to drop its defense, wounded units get healed up by stave guys in the back. Low hp enemy units and enemy archers get finished of by berserkering swords men, since there won't be a counterattack that could seriously injure them. OP enemy champion? Use some axeman to cut their attack down to manageable levels.

The defense penalties on certain items would be there, to make sure that armies consisting of only those units wouldn't be op, by negating some of the possible offensive power through stark reduced defense of such units.

Ie. you have tons of archers and axe units to reduce an enemies attack superiority? Though luck, since your units fall like flies without some units to soak up the damage.

Ofc combat like this would be micro heavy but imo it would add quite a bit to the game, if we'd get special abilties like this. The above are only examples of course, but imo simple abilities with strong effects for weapons and some equipment could make the battles more tactical in the current framework of the system. It's also important to not overdo the number of abilities, to keep the combat fast. In other words, iconic abilities for weapons that would define them instead of them having just an attack score.

The disadvantage of such a system is, it would need serious AI work to make it good and the necessary APIs for the AI to do that may prove too time intensive to add.

 

TL;DR without special abilities tied to equipment, the current system can't be made tactical.

Reply #25 Top

Make spearmen (and you need more spears) have a special ability to set charge, and do extra damage to cavalry and negate first strike.

Make cavalry have a charge ability to do one attack at massive damage

Make a rock paper scissor relationship between melee units.
End of quote

I think that's what Frogboy means with the following:

Now, FE has a totally different combat system with damage types, defense types, attack types, etc.
End of quote

Ie. with WOM, he can't change the current system, he can only change numbers and add to content, but not change the system. Ie. no bonus attack against other units, no bonus attack against certain weapons, no RPS system, since the tech to do those things is not in the game.

Thus he could add special abilities like the weapons mod, but not new systems ie. no spear bonus against mounted units.