v1.1 no magic

Ok, as ranty as the OP is, I pretty much agree.  While I'm loving 1.1, that's because I'm a civilization-building junkie and I'm intentionally playing a low-magic sovereign.  I can tell, though, that while magic looks better, it still needs to get beefed up for the name of the game to really make sense.

Yep the magic system needs a lot of work in Elemental to become balanced at the early, mid and late game.

Ranty or not, the OP has a point - the game is called "War of magic", yet it depicts struggle of city-states and warbands with a tiny support of mostly maintenance-oriented spellcasting (touch of enthropy aside, but it has been nerfed). You don't need a powerful wizard to come to a city and achieve +1 labour production - consultants do these things

I think its all an issue of balance, to start off with early magic was over powered, but mid was well matched, and late magic was lacking.. now i have seen many requests to nerf later and early magic spells, but I have yet to get to late magic. 

I think all Sovereigns should start with a decent intrinsic (maybe direct damage, maybe other) spell with a cool name, that could be used (depending on the spell type) 1-3 times a round for 0 or minimal mana cost, depending on the type of spell.  They could *perhaps* have range limitations (maybe 3?) depending on other factors, or alternatively could augment the Sovereign's own melee attack and defense.  Even better if there was a choice at character creation of what unique spell you started with, or it could be a combination of characteristics chosen for that Sovereign.   Maybe certain prerequisites (stats/talents/starting gear) for different starting spells?

What do other people think?

Best regards,
Steven.

Argh, this is not what I wanted to be reading. I've been keeping my eye on the progress towards this patch and was hoping it to all be good news.

I think with magic, they need to look at Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic and just shamelessly copy it if need be. I want to start the game with a few basic spells, and constantly learn new spells through the course of the game. I want AE spells, heals, direct damage, buffs, and lots of utility, and I want the combat stages to involve the magic more. In AOW, often the battles took place with one side within some city walls, so it forced you to make the most of magic. You had no line of sight to use Ice Shards or whatever, but you could use Geyser or whatever. I really hope to see this game encompass lots of different spells and they need to be powerful enough that it equals melee characters. I also would like to be able to train my heroes to learn magic too.

Having real obstacles on the battlefield, and restricting archers and certain spells to line-of-sight would be a good way of balancing spells and archery too.

I agree with voodoochile - don't re-invent the wheel for everything.  There is no rule that says you can't use some of other games mechanics to improve your own game.   This is a War of Magic after all.

Best regards,
Steven.

I agree, a well balanced starting spell for the sovs is needed. It is not fair that someone can make a warrior sov right off the bat yet currently it takes many turns to get a half decent caster sov going. The current starting warrior sovs can get a weapon with 9 attack very quickly so the spell should be balanced against this.

lots & lots of  Helps me play... but its hard to buy more   at 5:43 am. I'v been trying to play a Sovereign who does not use a stick, & relies solely on magic... yikes... sure is hard on rediculous; let me rephrase that, sure is impossible. I've been playing since v1.09e; then from there each & every beta thats hit us. While alot of things have been improved magic has not. Actually, from my experience magic is less powerfull than before & I know allready that I won't be able to play a Sov who relies on magic for combat. Not at all...

 bummer

Well, that won't necessarily stay that way.   There are really good opportunities for creation possibilities that give magic users their own identity without relying on them beating people up with a stick.

Kael and Frogboy, considering the fact that the sub-title of the game is "War of Magic", would you consider some of the possibilities discussed in this (and other) threads for threading the "War of Magic" into "Elemental"?   FFH2 has a really interesting magic "feel" and while we don't want Elemental to Fall from Heaven , there are lot of lessons learned there about magic that would apply in the post 1.1 "Elemental: War of Magic" environment.

So, guys, what do you think?

Best regards,
Steven.

As for the OP, you are in good part right, despite my magic oriented channelers kicking ass in the betas (yes, even with 1 spell per turn limit). Sovereigns should get some... cantrips or something. Yep, once my Sovereign has access to an offensive spell (usually Arcane Arrow), the magic machine is on (although at first a bit limited because arcane arrow isn't really a "basic magic attack" spell). Some kind of low non-scaling ranged damage spell would be very useful. Just some spells that are common and not powerful but useful. Increased line of sight, minor healing (strategic type)...

But with magic still in progress (I don't believe they have finished with it, just for 1.1), ther is room for great improvements in this deparment for 1.2

Wintersong

 Yep, once my Sovereign has access to an offensive spell (usually Arcane Arrow), the magic machine is on (although at first a bit limited because arcane arrow isn't really a "basic magic attack" spell).

• Sure takes a long time to kill a npc that has 350+hp with arcane arrow...especially with nearly no mana to speak of; lol. I've been stairing at 2 unfinished quests right outside my capitols z.o.c. for the last 30 turns... got nothing that can touch stacks with 1,250+ hp. ha.. serves me right for jumping in on ridiculous.

This is a result of not allowing enough time for testing of 1.09w.  Not sure what the rush was, but I feel like they made some changes to 1.09v and then pushed it out the door.

Well, I don't play on higher difficulty levels so Arcane Arrow "woks fine" in middle ones.

Given how central it is to the game (and how easilly it can become imbalanced) I don't see us ever being 'done' with the magic system...v1.1 was simply a step towards something we're proud of, with global mana and more unique spells being the focus there. Upcoming versions will continue to build on the foundation, with another major overhaul coming in the first expansion pack.

By all means be proud of v1.1 for it is, if nothing else, a massive step in the right direction for the game.

I agree with the OP though, magic really needs some love before the game will break the awesome barrier. Right now it's just 'above average' imo.

I wouldn't even say it's average. Right now, there is a clear trade-off between magic and everything else. For every point I put in arcane research, I will lose one point put in tech research.

So, the problem isn't that magic "isn't there" or "isn't awesome", the problem is that it is so weak that the player has no incentive to spend points in it. Let's be honest - you COULD build 50 arcane laboratories, but you don't, because 50 libraries will yield an infinitely higher payoff.

This is the same problem we see with intelligence - it is useless because magic is weak.

Increasing the strength of magic will entice players to use it. I wrote a post about the uselessness of spells here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/401921

to back up Boogie:  tons more changes are coming to the magic system....  and I don't mean 'we plan on looking at it', I mean 'we have changes thought up already that we just didn't have time to implement in 1.1.  These aren't little things like "more spells" or adding a starting spell either, expect some seriously adjusting because, while it does serve a purpose now, it isn't where we want it to be either.

As a note, having magic spells (particularly damage ones) can be pretty crucial in the late game depending on the tech progression of your enemy factions.  Magic damage is not mitigated by armor, which can be a huge deal late in the game.

That's really good to hear.

I'm guessing it's too early for you to tell us what you have in mind though hey?

The main issue i have with the magic system is not the 'War of Magic' part, but the 'Elemental' part. It seems that the spells represented in the elemental books are usually less useful than their ordinary counterparts. The Water book is almost empty. At the moment I think most players try to get the fire book but don't really look at the others.

I would have to agree here.

Using magic in this game is a choice. And it's the weaker choice, considering you can load up on mundane troops and army and be super-duper effective. Arguably, that's the most effective way to do things, even regular troops are pretty slow.

Now, I know you guys are going to 'super overhaul' the system. But honestly the game would really benefit from a higher initial global mana throughput, a starting initial elemental spell book, and a number of bonus spells dependant on INT.

One major problem is that dumb sovereigns store up extra mana they can use for super-devastating end game spells, whereas smart sovereigns wind up burning it all away. Intelligence REALLY needs to affect spell cost.

That way a caster sovereign and caster heroes can spit out magic and fire at a brisk pace, and STILL be able to compete with dumb sovs that didn't use any mana in the beginning of the game.

Right now mundane troops win because they're a resource that can be produced at a spectacular rate. X cities nets you X troops in 5 turns. Late game you can be spitting out 10, 20 troops every 5 turns. Even if you saved all your mana from the start of the game for one big confrontation, chances are you wouldn't be able to blast through that horde before the cities revved up again and made another one.

I guess the main problem is, cities, techs, and resources are all devoted towards improving mundane attacks. Gold, Metal, Crystal, Cities, Pop, Tech, Combat Tree,Civics Tree, and Diplomacy Tree are all geared towards improving mundane troops. How about some magic love?

There isn't currently anyway to build your cities to improve your spells. Mana production buildings are VERY difficult to get. There isn't any way to burn metal. crystal, or gold to improve spells, and no magic items that improve spell casting.

Right now the only way to efficiently harness magic is to use it to supplement a strong mundane army. I would like to be able to sacrifice the ability to produce troops to improve my spell casting ability.

I would like to be able to devote building spots, troop production, pop, gold and resources to magic and spells. How can I do that? 

Seems to work just fine in the early game adventure phase, so long as you're not a fanatic about it. My sov is wandering around evaporating any particularly tough enemies with Arcane Arrow and then clubbing the rest. 

I've been using magic quite effectively in the late 1.09 betas, and now in my current 1.1 game.

First, it is REALLY nice to supplement my prestige, tech, materials, etc, with those city spells. Didn't start with a quarry or lumber mill nearby? New town building up too slow (0.4 pop per turn)? I'm almost forced to take Attunement for my Sov each time because my strategies need the mana pretty bad.

I'm 700+ seasons into my first 1.1 game and I still use fertility and enchanted hammers (-25% building time) on a new city I'm building up. With a stack of royalty and production heroes being teleported to whichever city I'm focused on building up, it can mean a level 3-4 city in a very, very short time (ready to cock block the AI, or block a critical choke point for protection).

The land changing spells are amazing for creating your own defensive positions, or creating more buildable area.

Late game, I'm going around with my Sov's family (spouse and 4 children), annihilating everything with area effect magic. Sure, the enemy has 10 creatures... I'm hitting them all at once with magic damage that bypasses their armor, and they are dropping like flies.

Uh, oh.. I got blindsided by an AI bringing his army to scout with? Call to arms = instant force! As long as I have the mana and resources, I can pump out as many units as I need at any city that can build them. I made 3 units of Lord Hammer, full master plate wearing, 12 squad elites... all in one turn with a couple castings of that spell. Saved my new city.

Now don't get me wrong.. I think there's a lot that can be done with the magic system. Spells affecting each creature inside a unit (so a squad of 12 guys gets hit by an area spell for 12x the damage) would make magic more effective against a late game army.

I think the change to the combat system (like initiative, etc) will positively affect magic as well. It should also help with the only tactic being "research Lord Hammers asap". Might actually see someone use a broadsword occasionally.

Lastly... I'd like to see some "magic-infused" units to appear in the late game. Imbuing a heal or fireball spell into a unit (or a squad of guys) could make combat a lot more about magic without needing to stick with the "stack of doom, only heroes can cast" situation. Nothing makes it feel like there's more magic going on, by having more people using magic.

I haven't played the new version yet, but from the comments it seems it would be preferable to have the mundane military stuff easy to get and have the 'magic' come in and make the difference.

The way the game has many divided trees that get more powerful as you climb means that you really have to choose the best one from the get-go, while the others are just a clearly suboptimal choice. I think there is a serious conflict between the different flavors of tech research and also spell research. 

You might try a short, simple, single tree of tech progression and a large elaborate maze of magic progression.

EDIT: What I mean is, the Civ series is a strategic choice between guns and butter as economists would say. With Elemental it a choice between two types of gun and then also butter, which is clunky. You have to diminish one of the guns or maybe the butter, so that something doesn't get left out of the tradeoff.

• Yeah, I hear ya, but I found it to be entirely without any challenge to play it on anything but the max dificulty setting. Hell, even on ridiculous I find I can easilly clear all npc's & enemy AI without any major trouble if I use weapons & armor. So this time around I wanted to see how I would fair playing a game without any advanced gear... With how little damage is done per spell, limit of spells cast per turn by heros, upkeep for aditional heros to cast combat spells, upkeep for 'city bonus' spells  & the global mana pool it's BRUTAL to even survive... so in that game I mentioned I outfitted 1 female peon with 13 points of leather armor so I wouldn't lose my capitol. Now shes an unstoppable killing machine; well she was untill she met a dragon. LOL

• Good to hear. I'll keep an eye out under the x-mass tree for some goddies for us wannabe channellers...