Vigilant Minions Way overpowered » Forum Post by MrDelightful

As far as I know, you can only have ONE familiar summoned at any given time.
I, at least, have never had more than one present at any given time, so for me it isn't really an issue.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I would have to agree overpowered; hopefully it will be balanced soon. At least make it so defense plays a better part.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I agree. The ability should be a normal AE spell. Not the entire map.

Successfully updated karma reason!

As far as I know, you can only have ONE familiar summoned at any given time.
I, at least, have never had more than one present at any given time, so for me it isn't really an issue.

One per caster. Considering you can make casters as long as you have essence, and you all four of your children are natural casters, and all summons are independent units, you can have....7? 8? Or more Vigilant Minions out, in one army, dealing tons of unavoidable, attack all enemies damage. When they get leveled, they can cast it as much as three times per battle, each.

You do the math. I doubt they're intended to be that strong. They were just added without the necessary balancing/restrictions in place.

Successfully updated karma reason!

But when you start getting squads (which is really early), isn't 10 damage almost nothing? But it would be extremely powerful against champions.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting ColonelFlagg,

reply 5

But when you start getting squads (which is really early), isn't 10 damage almost nothing?

If you have 7 of them dealing it 3 times a turn that's 210 points of unavoidable damage in the first three turns.

Successfully updated karma reason!

It's definitely overpowered. Arcane doom should be single target only, no AOE.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Have to agree. I've been playing empire since release of the game and I never train units in cities as I can pretty much own everything till about late game when units with a lot of health start popping out. But then you can transfer essence to another hero and get him to summon one, your children to summon one and so forth till you have an unstoppable army! Really fun to use as Empire but I was in tears when I lost an army to just one of these from another Empire nation attacking me

Successfully updated karma reason!

This unit turns any encounter into a trivial rout. The invincible strategy to winning as Empire is to bulk up your sovereign with lots of wisdom and minimum int; empower every champion he hires; level these champions once so they can put points into essence; and have everyone summon one of these little monsters. Have your champions/children keep empowering others just as long as their own mana remains at 5, so they can resummon this all-powerful unit when needed and spirit-walk wherever they want to go. An army of 3-5 champions with their vigilant minions out can lay waste to anything in the game with zero challenge. (I assume that against another player, it would just come down to who attacks whom first; whoever gets the first move in a battle automatically wins.)

Think of it this way. What 5-mana, level 3 spell inflicts 10 damage to every single enemy on the field, guaranteed, every time? And can recast for free 1-3 times per battle, every battle?

I'd suggest changing it to a 10-point, non-true direct damage spell vs. a single target. That would be appropriate for its mana and research cost and be somewhat balanced with the Kingdom version.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Not necessarily every battle, but close. Tactical mana and Strategic mana recharge at the same rate, 1 per turn. 3 turns(assuming you burn all your mana in a battle) isn't much of a wait, but it's there. I'm not saying it's as it should be. Just stating the facts.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Or just get the AI to prioritise it's targets correctly. A group of bowmen will usually kill the minion in a single turn of shooting, and anything above a man with a pointy stick will slaughter them in melee. But you can guarantee the AI is going to try and kill the hero standing at the back doing nothing rather than the units that are actually killing it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Archonsod,

reply 11

Or just get the AI to prioritise it's targets correctly. A group of bowmen will usually kill the minion in a single turn of shooting, and anything above a man with a pointy stick will slaughter them in melee. But you can guarantee the AI is going to try and kill the hero standing at the back doing nothing rather than the units that are actually killing it.

Still wouldn't matter unless the AI stack attacked on the strategic map, thus gaining the first tactical turn. The minion army can almost always wipe the board on it's first turn.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Corbeaubm,

reply 12

Still wouldn't matter unless the AI stack attacked on the strategic map, thus gaining the first tactical turn. The minion army can almost always wipe the board on it's first turn.

I had three VM do just that with the ultimate quest's finale.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Corbeaubm,

reply 12

Still wouldn't matter unless the AI stack attacked on the strategic map, thus gaining the first tactical turn. The minion army can almost always wipe the board on it's first turn.

With 10 points each they'd wipe out anything which wasn't a proper army. But to be honest I don't see that as a problem, I mean to pull it off you're using every magic caster in your nation, and they're supposed to be godlike. Having to actually raise a proper army and everything to defeat them would, at least in my eyes, be an improvement over the current situation where a peasant armed with a club can bring down an entire empire by offing it's leader. I dunno if Stardock have some secret Wat Tyler sympathies or something, but I do wonder how precisely your sovereign retains control of a nation when anyone capable of finding a stick with some heft could overthrow them.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting enroninvestor,

reply 9

This unit turns any encounter into a trivial rout. The invincible strategy to winning as Empire is to bulk up your sovereign with lots of wisdom and minimum int; empower every champion he hires; level these champions once so they can put points into essence; and have everyone summon one of these little monsters. Have your champions/children keep empowering others just as long as their own mana remains at 5, so they can resummon this all-powerful unit when needed and spirit-walk wherever they want to go. An army of 3-5 champions with their vigilant minions out can lay waste to anything in the game with zero challenge. (I assume that against another player, it would just come down to who attacks whom first; whoever gets the first move in a battle automatically wins.)

Think of it this way. What 5-mana, level 3 spell inflicts 10 damage to every single enemy on the field, guaranteed, every time? And can recast for free 1-3 times per battle, every battle?

I'd suggest changing it to a 10-point, non-true direct damage spell vs. a single target. That would be appropriate for its mana and research cost and be somewhat balanced with the Kingdom version.

I think Enroninvestor nailed it. To guarantee a win against the AI in the current state of elemental, all you have to do is summon alot of Vigilant Minions; to guarantee a win against a player, all you have to do is summon alot of Vigilant Minions and attack first

His suggested fix to this "Arcane Doom" sounds good to me, anyone else have any ideas?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting enroninvestor,

reply 9

The invincible strategy to winning as Empire is to bulk up your sovereign with lots of wisdom and minimum int; empower every champion he hires; level these champions once so they can put points into essence; and have everyone summon one of these little monsters. Have your champions/children keep empowering others just as long as their own mana remains at 5, so they can resummon this all-powerful unit when needed and spirit-walk wherever they want to go. An army of 3-5 champions with their vigilant minions out can lay waste to anything in the game with zero challenge.

Shock Trooper Raids are about infinitely more powerful though, so it's hardly an "invincible" strategy. Even boar spear peasant raids will slaughter Vigilant Minions, and they cost less gold to recruit than a champion; although, they take some research to get to - 6 techs.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Norhg,

reply 16

Quoting enroninvestor, reply 9The invincible strategy to winning as Empire is to bulk up your sovereign with lots of wisdom and minimum int; empower every champion he hires; level these champions once so they can put points into essence; and have everyone summon one of these little monsters. Have your champions/children keep empowering others just as long as their own mana remains at 5, so they can resummon this all-powerful unit when needed and spirit-walk wherever they want to go. An army of 3-5 champions with their vigilant minions out can lay waste to anything in the game with zero challenge.Shock Trooper Raids are about infinitely more powerful though, so it's hardly an "invincible" strategy. Even boar spear peasant raids will slaughter Vigilant Minions, and they cost less gold to recruit than champions do albeit they take some research to get to.

That's only true, again, if they get the first tactical turn. If the vigilant army attacks first, everything dies before they can even go.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Lord_Asmodeous,

reply 17

That's only true, again, if they get the first tactical turn. If the vigilant army attacks first, everything dies before they can even go.

Yeah, that's absolutely not true. Even a simple 9 man zealot team with clubs (which you should be able to build by time you research Vigilant Minion) has 90 hp and 18 attack at a cost of 36 gold. Ten hp off of that is nothing, and you are very very unlikely to have more than a couple of Vigilant Minions that early.

As soon as your enemy has raids of shock troopers, which comes 2 techs later at 6 techs into conquest, you'll see 180 hp per unit from level one and as soon as that happens Vigilant Minions start to lose all meaning due to their slow numbers and low regeneration. If you divide also your attack in multiple stacks the only answer is with similar units of his own.

Now, Vigilant Minions are very potent - probably too good - but they aren't invincible. 48 gold units with 180 hp and 24 attack are far more dangerous.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I totally agree, i did mention it before, here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/393134

First (second post) about the demons, then in the last post until now I had discovered those summons had it as well. It's totally crazy as I calculated there.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting GalahadtheElder,

reply 19

I totally agree, i did mention it before, here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/393134

First (second post) about the demons, then in the last post until now I had discovered those summons had it as well. It's totally crazy as I calculated there.

Are demons really a problem? The quest 900 gold each and come late in the game. You can usually build multiple raids for the same cost even with plate mail equipped units, and you would need some 10 demons to kill even a single level 1 raid of peasants with arcane doom. And when you start seeing the health tool pack, raids will have 360 hp from level 1.

Sure, they destroy indigenous monsters, but so does our armies and that's without having to spend essence to do it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, that's absolutely not true. Even a simple 9 man zealot team with clubs (which you should be able to build by time you research Vigilant Minion) has 90 hp and 18 attack at a cost of 36 gold. Ten hp off of that is nothing, and you are very very unlikely to have more than a couple of Vigilant Minions that early.

As soon as your enemy has raids of shock troopers, which comes 2 techs later at 6 techs into conquest, you'll see 180 hp per unit from level one and as soon as that happens Vigilant Minions start to lose all meaning due to their slow numbers and low regeneration. If you divide also your attack in multiple stacks the only answer is with similar units of his own.

Now, Vigilant Minions are very potent - probably too good - but they aren't invincible. 48 gold units with 180 hp and 24 attack are far more dangerous.

Hi. 3 Vigilant Minions + 1 unit of your own shock troops, + your sovereign. Your shock troops clean up the almost dead peasants with clubs, while your sovereign nukes the remainder. Tougher troops than that? Just add more minions. It's not like you have any limit on your supply of casters.

It's game over. For a 2nd Level summon spell, it's OP. It's neither balanced, nor tested, nor fun.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Nenjin,

reply 21

Hi. 3 Vigilant Minions + 1 unit of your own shock troops, + your sovereign. Your shock troops clean up the almost dead peasants with clubs, while your sovereign nukes the remainder.

30 hp off a unit with at least 180 hp? Sure, that's a lot.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Demons really aren't a bit deal. They are close to end game. But the minions are nasty for early game summons. Demons are also balanced quite a bit by dragons on the other side. There is nothing to compare to the minion.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Anyone who thinks vigilant minions are anywhere close to being the biggest balance issue in this game- lol. It would be a pretty easy strategy to counter in MP- at any point in time, a player should be easily able to make units with 20+ times as much hitpoints as the number of VMs you can get into play. VMs are definitely very useful against both critters and casters and they might be due a nerf, sure, but it certainly isn't the I-Win button some people are making it out to be.

Successfully updated karma reason!

30 hp off a unit with at least 180 hp

Try 60 damage in round 1, and 30 damage in round 2.

Or 80, and 40.

Or 100, and 50.

Or 120 and 60.

Or 140 and 70.

There's no effective cap, and the units themselves get more mana as they level, that's why they're problematic. And you seem to ignore the resources necessary on the opponents end required to survive an attack like that. The only reason the AI is pulling it off at all is because it's resource cheating to beat the band.

And yes, I've had armies of 7 Vigilant Minions, quite easily. I stopped there because it was becoming pointless. A single Shock Troop can mop up all the other, mostly dead shock troops. That's 7 minions, and one shock troop. Not even a full army.

Successfully updated karma reason!