Combat mechanics

from Elemental Forums

I think it's clear the combat is quite volatile. Let's suppose we have 4 def 4 attack guy fighting the same guy. I suppose each attack or defence roll will get 0-4 result, (if it's 1-4 result will be simmilar but with lower damage potential)

Next will go some statistics: chance to hit for 5 - 4%, 4 - 8%, 3-12%, 2-16%, 1-20%, 0 - the rest(40%), As you can see it's almost a linear increase

Let's look at another guy, 7 att / 2 def

7-4%(1/24), 6-8%(2/24), 5-12%(3/24) 4-12%(3/24) 3-12%(3/24) 2-12%(3/24) 1-12%(3/24) 0-24%(6/24) - Here we can see a linear dispersion for the most part.

That's to put it blunt is a very bad mathematic formula for damae calculation, since it tends to create spikes (ie high chance of a very high or very low damage) and limits any potential tactics. Hero can be oneshoted especially with high attack.

Now let's look what happens if elemental will adopt MoM formula, but let's say not 30% to hit chance but 50%. (to those who does not know each rank in attack has 50% chance to hit) now chance to do max damage is only 0.2%. We are getting typicall bell curve here with 2.5 damage as an average. I do think it's a much better damage calculation formula since it creates predictable result but still allows variation.

And frankly I don't think it's that hard to change dmg formula.

elemental
13,388 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

It is too simple now. They seem to have removed the attack and defence types, so now you have to put on your units armors with higher values, a weapon with higher value that's all.

I think we may get the promised attack-defense relations when the AI will be capable to calculate with it.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

My main grip is combat is far too volatile.

As I showed there are quite high chance to score very high damage and very low damage. It's not as critical when you have low attack values, but when you have high attack values it becomes unmanageble. You can create super cool champion/channeler itself then wack one poor roll and it's killed. And when there are several guys who attack you with high attack values you are almost guaranteed to get poor roll.

This devaluates combat and put a lot more emphasis on kill squad - no armor high attack. Those who strike first - mostly win, but how you supposed to keep your champions alive in this case?

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Agree totally. It's far too volatile. There's just too much randomness. I'd rather see defense taken off a rolling system entirely and simply use it as a modifier that lowers attack before the attack roll. But there's lots of options on how to deal with it.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rwemack, reply 4
There seems to be a thread like this over in the ideas section:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/392880

 

Maybe if we combine the threads, we can get some more momentum on this subject.
End of rwemack's quote

 

Yep, I'll repost my ideas here. It's clearly a big issue

Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top

Cari said in the chat last night that they'd scrapped the damage resistance system because it would've been too complicated to convey to the user. When I asked about the possibility of modding the combat system via XML Kryo basically said that it wasn't likely as the combat system was hardcoded in. So currently it's not something we can fix ourselves. The remnants of the old system are still there in the XML according to a few people so maybe we can convince them to hook it back up again.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Slainangel52, reply 6
Cari said in the chat last night that they'd scrapped the damage resistance system because it would've been too complicated to convey to the user. When I asked about the possibility of modding the combat system via XML Kryo basically said that it wasn't likely as the combat system was hardcoded in. So currently it's not something we can fix ourselves. The remnants of the old system are still there in the XML according to a few people so maybe we can convince them to hook it back up again.
End of Slainangel52's quote

Well I understand why they thought damage resistance was complicated because it is complicated.

Like - leather armor is better against that type damage... WTF my plate is not that good???

But current system is plainly bad. This system creates very uneven results like 80 attack may give 1 dmg but may 80 with equal probability.

 

As for damage resistance well, why don't just add traits for weapons, like armor piercing (for some piercing weapon) or stunning for blunts (but helmet will prevent that) or whatever it will be easy to understand and easy to implement. There are huge possibility here that will make weapons unique and it'll be fun to design units

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

A part of the problems seems to be that the damage is scaled from 0 not 1. In otherwords things like spells have eseentially no mininum. This should be changed for an escalating minimum (through tech, stats and research) for spells.

For example, a lowly club does 1-3 damage with a rating of 3. A short sword has a rating of 5 with a damag erange of 1-5. But say with better reserch into warfare and slashy things the both raise their minimums and maximums +1 per warfare tech level and additional research into slashy things gives the swords a +1. Thud 4 levels in warrfare with 1 into slash weapons would mean units with clubs get 4-7 damage base and swords 10-15. Then the units STR and kills damages would also be added. This same formula should apply for armor, magical items and spells. It would also make reserch into an area more valuable than just the theoretical possibility of building somthing. More magic research would yield higher damage / duration / to hit to all your learned spells not just opened up new spells/abilities.

RAT

 

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, actually the problem is that only the top-end damage scales. The stat bonus only applies to the max roll, not the min roll. In addition to the min being 0 or 1, that's what creates the huge volatility when you start rolling 1-200.

If both spells and weapons had a base damage range of say, 33%-100% damage (2-6, 5-15, 6-18, 8-24, etc) and both the low and high ends were affected by STR/INT modifiers, the damage values for both would be a lot more normalized.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting MumbaCraft, reply 2
My main grip is combat is far too volatile.

As I showed there are quite high chance to score very high damage and very low damage. It's not as critical when you have low attack values, but when you have high attack values it becomes unmanageble. You can create super cool champion/channeler itself then wack one poor roll and it's killed. And when there are several guys who attack you with high attack values you are almost guaranteed to get poor roll.

This devaluates combat and put a lot more emphasis on kill squad - no armor high attack. Those who strike first - mostly win, but how you supposed to keep your champions alive in this case?
End of MumbaCraft's quote

This is true, and it's compounded by how low HP totals are in relation to attack/defense.