[Gameplay] Proposed mechanic for random tech breakthroughs

Was: "Simultaneous research (without too much dev work)"

from Elemental Forums

Edited title because this thread has yielded what is IMO a better idea than what I started with. See post #7.

Elemental's technology research system is great. It really carries the right feeling in terms of not always knowing what you're going to find until you've found it. However, I think part of the paradigm is still rather flawed: the idea that when you're researching one thing, you're not researching anything else. This carries with it the foot-shooting property of allowing you to ultraspecialize, which is both unrealistic and frankly too easy to do by accident.

The multiple-path idea appears to be borrowed from the Master of Orion series; but note that they all allowed you to divide your research between the categories. And frequently, especially if you're not the compulsive micromanagement sort, this is a good idea. But at the low technology level of Elemental, even this doesn't seem quite right: not all discovery is done in laboratories, or by direct order from the powers that be. Sometimes a soldier or a farmhand has a breakthrough entirely on his own.

There are a few possible solutions, here. One would be to give some fractional advancement in all fields at once; you specialize in one, but it's really only getting let's say 50% of your total research, while the other 50% is divided evenly between the other fields. The downside of this is that the way the system works otherwise, this means that on certain turns you're going to get multiple breakthroughs. Doesn't feel very organic.

Another, and I must say I like this one better in the way it fits with the general Elemental research system, would be for each breakthrough to have a chance of showing technologies from different paths. The chance would be a function of how far advanced you are in each field. So if you've got Adventuring 8, Warfare 5 and Civilization 2: researching Adventuring will have a slight chance of producing a Warfare option and a high chance of a Civilization option; Warfare will have a slight chance of a Civilization option, but no chance of Adventuring; and Civilization will just be Civilization. If you pick a technology that wasn't in the category you were researching, it's the other category that increases a rank, and only the amount of research which would have actually been needed for that category is removed from your current pool. (So the net effect is no change to the current balance of tech costs.)

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Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

i mostly focus on one tech tree at a time while ignore all  others only to have some start a war that i no tech for a good army pretty much same in Gal Civ 2, this would make people that like to blitz one tree to spread out more and not worry about needing 100% focus on one tree.

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think I agree. I'm not a fan of simultaneous research in general. It makes for lazy play where you just hit "research" and eventually you get everything, instead of picking and choosing what you need from which tree. It makes for much more interesting play for me if I have to pay attention and know what I need to get.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 3
I don't think I agree. I'm not a fan of simultaneous research in general. It makes for lazy play where you just hit "research" and eventually you get everything, instead of picking and choosing what you need from which tree. It makes for much more interesting play for me if I have to pay attention and know what I need to get.
End of Annatar11's quote

Picking and choosing is great when you [A] have a unified tree with all your options clearly displayed at every research event, or [B] have the entire game memorized. We don't have A, and B is actually weaker in Elemental because of random results. What I proposed in the last paragraph of the OP, however, IMO doesn't break the part of that which you like (and which I agree with) -- your choices at each breakthrough event are still important, and focusing on one area is still the only way to exceed in that area. It's not actually simultaneous research, it's just the ability to occasionally repurpose it. I'd even say that a penalty for doing this would be reasonable; e.g. if you pick something that came from a different category, you lose +50% or even double its research cost from your pool. (Or 1.62x. Mmm, phi.) Since there's an upward curve on research costs, that's still going to be less than the full cost of a breakthrough in your primary line.

Being a random chance and carrying a meaningful opportunity cost, I don't think this breaks the system in any way, or encourages laziness; whereas it does make the game a lot less punishing for new players, time-constrained multiplayer games where you'd rather spend your turn moving units on the map, people who just don't like that level of micromanagement, etc. It's more accessible and more forgiving, but not so forgiving that it's pointless to ever change paths. (It occurs to me that with infinite incremental end-game techs, this is less true. Picks used on those probably shouldn't count for the tech-level comparison, or you would eventually get everything just by researching one category. Mind you, it would take a lot longer.)

Again, remember that my core motivation here is that dictatorial science is a terribly unrealistic abstraction. Yes, funding generates ideas; but ideas also happen without funding, especially in areas where there hasn't been much progress. IMO that should be represented, and if you can come up with other ways to handle it, please chime in. I happen to like this one because it greatly improves the existing abstraction without significantly altering it, and has the accessibility benefits mentioned above. But maybe there are other options?

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I think your idea is a good one, and worth considering.

Best regards,
Steven. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I actually logged on this morning to post something similar <.< lol 

 

What I was thinking though is something like you have a flat 10% chance every turn of researching something in each tree.  Whenever you build a building or recruit a unit that gives research points, you can invest those points into "actively researching" one of the tech trees.  As an example, say you have three research points and put them all into Warfare.  That could increase your chance of getting something in Warfare up to 13%, while the other four techs stay at 10%.  Since the player is "actively researching" warfare though the points could be cumulative, making it a 16% chance to learn something in warfare the next turn if something wasn't researched the previous turn, while keeping the others at 10%.  Once the current warfare tech is learned, the total could go back down to 13%. 

I think this could be fairly easily balanced by making higher tiers of research reduce the bonus % you get from research points.  Using the warfare example again, if you only invest 3 research points into it a T1 research would give you the full 3% per turn (so going up 3%, 6%, 9%, etc for each subsequent turn that the research it's discovered), but a T4 or T5 could reduce that bonus to something like 1% per turn (going up 1%, 2%, etc.).  This would only affect the bonus though, never dipping below the default 10% per turn.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh, now that's an interesting idea. Very different from the current system, but I wonder if the two could be pasted together...

How about this: leave the current system in place, exactly as it is. This represents focused, funded, state-mandated research. Additionally, each nation has an invisible "random breakthrough" pool. Several sources can add to this pool (more on that later). Each turn, there is a chance of a random breakthrough equal to:

pool / X + GameTurn*Y + pool

...where X and Y are moddable and will depend on both how we want to scale the pool units and how frequently we want random breakthroughs to occur. They might also be adjusted by certain traits. There's never a 100% chance, and the chance decreases over time. For now, let's assume X = 10 and Y = 1. When a breakthrough occurs, the pool is reset to zero.

Things that add to this pool could include: 1 point per Champion (including the Sovereign); the level of each of your cities; 1 point per 10 levels of non-Champion troops (can troops level up yet?); 1 point per domestic trade route; 2 points per foreign trade route; etc.

Now, when a breakthrough does occur, it's random but weighted. There's no choice involved (you get what you get) and it does not increase your relevant tech level (i.e., no effect on normal research times). As a baseline, each tech for which you meet the prerequisites has a chance of appearing relative to the inverse of its rarity. The sources of pool influence are also checked, kind of like the great people generation mechanic in Civ4: champions make Adventuring more likely, cities encourage Civilization breakthroughs, common troops yield Warfare, trade routes produce Diplomacy, and I'm sure we'll think of something that contributes to Magic. Technologies that other nations already have are more likely to appear.

Thoughts?

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Bump for 3-C. O:)  Also edited title as I think the idea just above is much better than the original.