I forsee (economic) modmods in the future

but anyways, we've got this part down for now. Onwards to other, greater things! muahahahahaha

I should have a signature that says "Will work for Tak battle"

 something like "you give me good tactical battles, I give you good testing" or something silly like that

Relative prestige determines how fast your towns fill up.

When you start getting wars going, having a net prestige of 1 (meaning 1 new citizen per turn) is going to be quite problematic.

Improvements that provide "jobs" in the generic sense are what tend to provide prestige. Part of the underlying game is about fighting for a very finite # of people.  

Moreover, if there are nearby enemy cities that have much higher prestige, you can see your cities losing out to them as people move to those cities.

Hmm, if you raze a city ... do those people go back into the "wilderness pool"?

Also makes the act of Exterminating a population, as opposed to merely razing a city, more evil and sinister as it reduces the overall population pool. (assuming we have an option to Capture, Enslave, Raze, or Raze/Exterminate)

That is not what is commonly meant by "global".

What you want is a trading system where resources flow from source to destination. What they're talking about with "global" is a what is commonly used in RTS games where you have "vespene gas" in the corner of your screen and watch it go up over time as it harvests and then down when you build units.

I just realized it is kind of ironic that we just got rid of the various mana bars created by shards to replace them with various global resources.

I like this.

Except if you are a Master Necromancer. In that case, being the absolute ennemy of all that lives actually make sense on a strategic PoV, and you aren't doing it only for the Evillzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Except if you are a Master Necromancer. In that case, exterminating cities and being the ennemy of All That Lives make sense on a strategic point of view, and you aren't forced of doing it for the evillllllzzzzzzzz

I like the idea of Global Food as mentionned by Frogboy earlier, but I have different opinions on different ideas. I personally disagree with the idea of diminishing food percentage farther you are from the city that produces it. The main reason for my disgreement is that if my caravan is able to take 500kgs of wheat from city X to city Y which is 10 tiles away, than that caravan should be able to take that same amount of food to city Z which is 10 more tiles away, although it would take more time. But the time I'm refering to here is only a factor at the beginning of the trade. When you first connect your two cities, it should take X turns (Based on the distance the city is away from the production center) before the city is able to use the newly generated food. After that time is elapsed, it should be implied that caravans are sent at good intervals so the city always has access to the food generated from the production center. With this method, the idea of a "Food Network" that was presented earlier works pretty good. The food from a given production center should ONLY be accessible by cities which are connected to it by trails/routes of some kind. And depending on the "level" of roads you are using, the time to first access the ressource could be changed. With a trail it takes X days and with a paved road it takes X/2 days.

Like I said, I love the idea of Global Food is nice, but it is extremely unrealistic without some kind of network between cities. That way the food used for housing is imported only from other cities to which you have had a connection with for a certain number of days. Which is pretty realistic IMHO.

More on the main subject now, I really liked the idea of Outlaw about the population's mood to be more and more evil towards you if you do not build enough housing to host the citizens of a given city. Frogboy, you did not talk much about it in your previous posts that solutionned a lot of issues and it would be nice to have your opinion on that, if possible.

well.. You still need to spend more ressource of your nation to food distribution and organisation than one that has all its farms at the doorstep.

This is an actual very, very realistic concern. Food transportation, and has been the limit, the strenght and weaknesses of so many nations over history.

So, if you have your food sources away from your population, and you don't have a natural mean of transport (river), you will have to send a lot of ressource toward this movement.

On the other hand, that also mean that your nation will develop it's internal trade much quicker. Also you will have better sanitation technology over time, as you need to preserve food longer. It all balances out.

I would love to see some kind of distribution system where even though there are 'global' resources, things like distance and terrain effect how cities recieve resources. Which of course is upgradeable through research and investing money into it.

when will 1Z be released? I am looking forward to testing. In the end, what I want is a fun game. For me, tactical battles, and other things warfare related are authority prima, and around that, what I want is a fun game.

I suppose this means that the things most important to me (as far as complex is cooler) is Magic, Warfare, and Adventuring. As long as the Diplomacy and Economy are fun, I think that is what matters. I suppose this works in the reverse too ... for other people wanting a fun economy and who Auto-Battle everything (even important battles).

I suppose what I mean to say is ... that even if it feels a little "gamey" with no real restrictions on Perishable items, as long as it fits into something that people can have fun playing, then realistic restrictions on perishables don't matter as much.

The way I see perishable is that it will either be consumed each turn or not, yet no storage (or limited storage through granaries? for a seige?). Well, most resources I can think of as just pieces to the game puzzle. Food, on the other hand, I feel drives a game more than almost anything else. Nations and Armies run on their stomach ... so having a well-working food economy is always a plus for a game.

Having food global is definitely a plus for me. I am not as interested in having limitations on distance and terrain, as their are so many other moving parts. What I would like, is either a Global Granary or a Per-city granary. This granary stores food up to a certain point (can be expanded upon) ... and this extra food is used up during a seige, for a small buffer between being attacked and immediate starvation. I don't mind the granaries adding up to a global (limited) storage for food ... however having a (in case of emergency storage) Granary for each city (being optional of course) would, I think, allow for a small buffer between a city peacefully going about its business and being completely strangled from the Global Food Network. Even if its just enough food to partially alleviate the stress of just one turn under seige.

You'd do well to take a lesson from Master of Magic and make things simple like just applying % portion of the population to farming or production and growth based on certain buildings being built throughout the game. Of course there would be a base growth rate based on where the city was settled just like in MOM.

MOM has been great for all these years for a simple reason. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. The game doesn't need all that micromanagement for HOUSING. The game should put more emphasis on building upgrades for better units and building huge armies for battle. I play games for the wargame in them not playing dollHOUSES with them.

Ehh, funny stuff...this is the game concept, what I hate the most. We can also translate it like "Dumbed down into oblivion".

More like when two choices give nearly the same result choose the simpler one.

Players like you with micromanagement brains, what I hate the most. If I wanted to play Fantasy Sim City I'd look for a product with that title. If they want to sell large quantities of this product they'll need to make it simple so the brainless 12 year olds will buy it. Too much micromanagement in a TURN BASED GAME won't sell to the masses of children who have access to their mommies and daddies hearts and pocket books. Adding micromanagement housing to a turn based game is rediculous and I certainly won't buy into it or even recommend it to my friends and game club members around the globe.

That might be true [complexity/heavy micro is not an acceptable option for the "masses", but we have talked about this already], but we are different you know. Thankfully everyone will have their fun with this game. Hardcore/complex TC mods will be made.

Well, its not that I wont spend many hours to obsessively learn to optimize the economy at a whim each turn (eventually) but I would rather have a playable game with good multiplayer than an elitists game (when it comes to economy)

Honestly its not that I hate complexity, its that I hate economy "nuts" and economic (WWII USA-like) advantages the most. I like for warfare (or rather the tactical battles) to be extremely complex, easy to understand the key concepts (like move forward) and hard to master the intricacies of battle (like Ninja-Assassinating them yesterday).

What I don't like is a Cheesy option to Gimmick in order to sky-rocket ahead of everyone and be rolling out Modern Armors vs Other Peoples Tanks (if they try their damnest at another approach) or their muskets (if they are a newb or being lazy or bad start)

What I would like is having to understand wind-speed and relative elevation to judge how to set your Tank Turret or Artillery barrel before firing. (extreme example, but still)

and I think Gimmicks are easier to find in fantasy games (like FFH) than in duller, less fun games ... yet I tend to hate economic gimmicks.

(Vampires, Firebows, Arcane Barges, and Aristocracy all seem to be gimmicks of FFH2) ... probably the spells "Blind" and "Pillar of Fire" as well, and once upon a time "Dominate" was also used as a gimmick, but that was due to our unique settings at the time + being an older build.

Priests of Winter, however, might seem like a gimmick but (imho) is not a gimmick, but just barely properly balanced. Same with Elven "Treant WorldSpell." It can be killer, but is "just" temporary enough to not be an I-Win button most of the time.

The first thing I notice about 1Z is that I could build a workshop right away, but it took advanced research to build houses and farms.  "Hmmm," I thought, "now what is the blacksmith going to eat, and where is his family going to sleep?" 

It feels wrong in 1Z.  We are in an apocalyptic landscape.  First order of business is survival, no rushing the unlock of a marketplace for more gold.  We need to start with farms and houses.  Either place them early in the tech tree, or give them to us at the start of the game.

I'm okay with the suggestion of the original post where houses are automatically built on the periphery of the town.  But it just seems wierd, and somewhat immersion-breaking, that orchards and houses rank on the tech tree at about the same level as things like tax collectors.

Workshops do not house Blacksmiths, they House Carpenters. Carpenters are far more "low-tech" than blacksmiths. All you need for materials is a basic knowledge of wood, and ways to build wood together to create buildings.

The main job of the Carpenter would be to cut the wood and make the nails by hand, and then hire laborers to piece the wood together.

Houses and farms are actually rather complex structures, needing an advanced infrastructure to maintain. Certainly you would need knowledge of wood-working, and an established carpenter, to get started on such projects. You, as the Sovereign, know that you are going to need Materials to build your gleaming city, so it makes sense that the first guy that comes to your city you will give a hammer and nails and tell him to "learn how to do this for a living" so that you will have the ability to keep making more buildings.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Huts and Gardens can be built from turn 1. You can completely avoid the Civilization techs, and still do relatively well with the help of Gardens and Huts.

Also, Houses and Farms are very early available. The "Merchant" building implies a Trading post. And the study is just that, a One-Room building where people can sit and contemplate.

Tax Collectors are very late-game economic buildings which signify an Administration Sophisticated enough to begin Taxing the Citizenry. Obviously the richer a city is, the more taxes they can pay, which is why it increases gold by a percentage. (should be either 1 square and 10% or 4 square and 25%)

I agree with this methodology.  It is akin to heroes of Might and Magic upgrading the town centre to get more money (no population in Heros, but money is the end result for elemental)  In heroes, there was a limit on the  number of the biggest towns/cities/capital's  you had.  In Elemental, this restriction is based on food, and as Cauldyth states, using town centres/town halls etc as upgrading from village to town, town to city, will give you control over where your population resides.

This solution is also more understandable and easier to learn than the zoning system in my opinion.  Also, it seems to keep in the theme of Elemental by building town centres/City Halls, rather than zoning.

Its a decent suggestion, although I like my huts, houses, and Villas. More accurately I would like my Villas, Slums, and Mansions .... however those are not balanced yet.

If a Mansion takes up 4 space, then it should really produce 10 prestige to be "worthwhile"

Same methodology says that Slums should hold at least 300 housing (requiring either 16 or 12 food is debatable, depending on -1 or -2 prestige)

It is close. Your very first option(s) are "Workshop", "Garden", "Watch Tower".

The building the SOV placed for his 5 Essence is the "center" of the village. From there we require "Materials" thus a Workshop works logically. Since we know Food is BIG, we Tech Farms right away and while waiting for that we accumulate enough "Materials" for "Huts" etc. etc.

What I think is sort of out of place on the Tree is the Lumber Mill. That to me is the source of the "Materials" to be used by the "Workshop", which of course comes with stock, but it should not hold enough for anyone to Ignore the "Lumber Mill" Tech pretty much without early consequence.

So the very early buildings and Tech are not bad but as I noted above, I would force the "Lumber Mill", which a Pioneer (currently) cannot harvest (the Dev have a reason for that I assume) to be required before Houses can be research or built. (a choice thing really)

Then we have something resembling a Start up Logic in place and the rest can follow in almost any order, based on ones need or plan (Magic, Stone, Crystals, Scenic Views or Gold) by selecting ones desired path through the Tech Tree.

SOV starts up, gardens to feed, "Workshop" (with limited supplies) Watch Tower, to see better with, ( a waste right now really, imo) the Farms, Huts, Lumber and then "Run out of bubble Gum"

Now I can say I really hope to have micromanagement housing in the game?

I second that motion. I was once on of them brainless 12 year old and I can tell you I would have done my chores and cleaned my room, and done my homework ten fold had I known it would get me a game like Elemental. One does not need to be "brains" ( I use that term loosely) to like Elemental, imagination however that I think is a requirement to have fun with elemental.

Also (I may be wrong on this) but for what I read I thought Elemental plans to make tactical battles that can be either turn base or real time (hack and slash where one can take control of ones favorite unit/hero as an avatar and fight the battle like in Diablo or Baldurs Gate. I also read that this game is/will be available in 64 bit so that would allow for some 3D action to satisfy the more hack and slash oriented player(huge armies and 3D action). When I play NeverWinter Nights ( I LOVE that game) one of the things I hate is having to spend so much time actually walking around to get to the encounters/battles. I wish I could just do what Elemental has put in place and play that game as a PnP table top cloth and only deal with the actual 3D avatar action if I have an encounter should it be fight or RPing or Quest or Town etc.